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I've been trying to trace the births and parents of Frederick Gurney (1882, Kinsale, Co Cork, Ireland). I can't find a birth for him at all, and all his siblings, it seems were born in Upton on Severn. His parents are another Frederick Gurney (1866, Upton on Severn), and another Minnie (no surname mentioned), supposedly from Dublin (but i've quickly learnt that this could mean anywhere in Ireland). I'm also looking for Minnie Hicks (1881, possibly Cork or Dublin). I've traced Minnie's father as William Hicks, but no mother, and I've had both Dublin and Cork mentioned as birthplace.

Any help here would be great!

Can you give us a little more info, a little more clearly?

The younger Frederick Gurney married Minnie Hicks?

Do you have them in a census? Where did they live?

You have the fathers' names from their marriage certificate, or a parish record? Where did they marry?

Have you got a birth certificate for any sibling born in Upton on Severn? The mother's name? Is it not the same mother as Frederick's? What does "another Minnie" mean?

Sorry, but as it stands, it's just a bit jumbled, and we do like to see bits from actual records to know where info has come from and what info is available!

Right ... 1891 census

Name: Frederick Garney
[Frederick Gurney]
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Frederick Garney
Mother's Name: Minnie Garney
Where born: Kinsale, Ireland

Civil parish: Upton On Severn
County/Island: Worcestershire
Registration district: Upton On Severn

Frederick Garney 31 - farm labourer, born Worcester, Welland
Minnie Garney 26 - born Ireland, Cork
Frederick Garney 9
Florence Garney 5
Archdah Garney 3
Reuben Garney 2


So they likely married in Ireland, but any child's birth certificate in England will give Minnie's full name.


Are you in touch with the Ancestry member who corrected the surname in 2006? --

"Garney Gurney rather than Florence Garney
Sister of my Grandfather Ernest Archdale Gurney"

There are several Public Family Trees on ancestry with the Frederick Gurneys in them

The information MUST be treated with caution, as sources are not cited ....... but the information may give you a starting point


Sturch@long family tree_2010-03-30
Owner: tonysturch

Frederick Charles Gurney

Birth
10 JUN 1859
Welland, Worcestershire, England

Death
1939
Birmingham, Warwickshire, England


1881
13 Feb
Age: 21
Marriage to Mary Fitzgerald <<<< some trees say Mary OR Minnie
St Anne's Church, Shandon, Cork City (Protestant)


1939
Age: 80
Death
Birmingham, Warwickshire, England


Parents

Ambrose Jenkins
Birth
27 JUL 1832
Colwall, Herefordshire, England

Death
JUN 1889
Worcestershire, England


Ann Gurney
Birth
1839
Cushby Worcestershire


Siblings

William Gurney
1856 –

Ambrose Phillip Jenkins
1862 –

Charles Jenkins
1864 –

Edwin Jenkins
1866 –

Arthur Thomas Jenkins
1869 –

Francis E Jenkins
1872 –

Walter E Jenkins
1874 –

Lily Maria Jenkins
1876 –

Henry J Jenkins
1878 –

Herbert C Jenkins
1880 –

Fanny Jenkins
1883 –


Spouse & Children

Mary Fitzgerald
Birth
1863
Cork, Ireland

Death
1954
Birmingham, Warwickshire, England


Children

Frederick Gurney
1882 – 1973

Florence Gurney
1886 – 1961

Ernest Archdale Gurney
1887 –

Alick Reuben Gurney
1889 –

Oswald Gurney
1891 –

Gilbert Gurney
1893 – 1894

Adelaide Charlotte Gurney
1894 – 1984



Frederick Gurney
Birth
1882
Kinsale, Cork, Ireland

Death
1973
Cardiff, Wales

Spouse & Children

Maud Olive Twining

Birth
1884
Birmingham, Warwickshire, England


Children

Living Gurney

Living Gurney

Living Gurney

Living Gurney



sylvia

I suggest that you take out a 14 day free trial on ancestry, if you do not have a subscription to the site.

That would allow you to look at these trees, and make contact with the tree owners.

You do have to provide credit card information for the free trial, so do make sure that you notify ancestry several days before the trial would end if you decide not to continue, otherwise your credit card will be charged. I suggest doing that no later than day 10 of the trial.



sylvia

I always wonder where people get info from ...


Frederick Gurney (1882, Kinsale, Co Cork, Ireland).
Frederick Gurney (1866, Upton on Severn)

would have made Frederick Sr 16 when Jr was born ... possible, but maybe not likely.

FreeBMD, free and easy for all:

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

Births Sep 1859
Gurney Frederick Charles Upton 6c 287

There's no birth there c1866.


1911 ?

GURNEY FREDERICK 1882 29 Kings Norton Worcestershire
(answers to search for born in Kinsale, Ireland)
GURNEY OLIVE 1885 26
GURNEY HILDA 1910 11 MONTHS
GURNEY OSWALD 1892 19
GURNEY ADELAIDE 1895 16


Gurney births after 1911 in Kings Norton show mothers' surnames Twining (including a Frederick in 1912), Dangerfield and Thompson .....

Marriages Mar 1908
COLE Nellie Birmingham 6d 1
> GURNEY Frederick Charles Birmingham 6d 1
REDLEY Richard Birmingham 6d 1
> TWINING Maud Olive Birmingham 6d 1

Ok to clarify

we have 2 fredericks and 2 minnies

Frederick Gurney (born kinsale, co cork 1882 who married Olive Twining and lived in Kings Norton, Died in 1978 in Llandaff, Cardiff, Wales, and had children Horace, and Hilda plus others). 1911 census has him with Olive, and his brother and sister Oswald and Adelaide in station road, Kings Norton.

Frederick Gurney (born 1866, Welland, Worcs, who married Minnie unknown (born 1862) of Co Cork Ireland) I know nothing more about this Minnie. In the 1911 census, they are still in upton on severn where they had all but 1 (frederick) of their children.

Minnie Hicks (born either dublin or cork, ireland, 1881, died 1968 in cardiff) who married Ernest Herbert (or ebbie) Baker in 1907 in kensington. Her father was William Hicks, but that is all I know. Her daughter Myrtle married Horace (Frederick Jr's son). Minnie and Ernest can be found in 1911 census in Llandaff, cardiff, but not before that.

Janey - I'll have to check that one!

can anyone varify if I have got the right father for frederick jr, because 16 was young to be a father even back then, unless the year of birth is wrong...

So. Where did you get the DOB 1866 from?
(Oh, maybe the 1911 census? People often got younger as they got older.)

Is Frederick c1882 not the one in the 1891 household I posted? I think so.

So that census gives his father, as I posted, as:

Frederick Garney [Gurney] 31 - farm labourer, born Worcester, Welland

That makes him born 1859-60.

So that makes him the birth I posted:

Births Sep 1859
Gurney Frederick Charles Upton 6c 287

Aged 31 not yet 32 in the 1891 census.

Not sure what question remains about him!


In among that ream that Sylvia posted is the info that someone at Ancestry has a tree showing Frederick Sr's wife as Mary Fitzgerald. You can contact that person through Ancestry to enquire. You can take out a free 14-day subscription for that purpose if need be. You can send an email address in your message for the person to contact you.

You can also contact the person who corrected the Gurney surname in the 1891 census.

You can also go to FreeBMD and find the birth of a child of Frederick Sr (distinctive names, not likely difficult). Then you buy that birth certificate and get the mother's name.

I think we've said pretty much all of this already! You just haven't noticed, or responded ...

Okay, so the info about Minnie Hicks is from -- her marriage certificate?

Marriages Sep 1907
BAKER Ernest Ebie Kensington 1a 447
HICKS Minnie Kensington 1a 447

You see, it doesn't do to give unverified info as gospel. What she said on her marriage certificate abour her age may not have been true; same applies to her father's name. When giving info, let us know where it came from.

Or from the 1911?

"Minnie and Ernest can be found in 1911 census in Llandaff, cardiff, but not before that. "

Can you just copy and paste it?

Okay ... how about

BAKER MINNIE 1883 28 Cardiff
BAKER ERNEST H 1881 30
BAKER NORAH M R 1908 3
BAKER KANER DIXON 1909 2
BAKER MYRTLE KICKS 1910 11 MONTHS

So her age there gives DOB 1882-3, not 1881.

I can't tell whether you're saying you can't find Ernest Baker before 1911 -- can you give his place of birth from the 1911? I don't subscibe for details.

Might this be his birth?

Births Sep 1879
Baker Ernest Ebenezer J Blean 2a 784

There's no Ernest Herbert around the right time, and Ebie isn't exactly a name.

If that's him, he's understated his age. It's useful to know these things, because, for example, Minnie might have understated her age when she married, either out of lack of exact knowledge or to appear younger than her husband.

There's no Minnie Hicks to suit in the 1901 census. Very few Hicks-s born in Ireland.

I wonder about this one, just because she's the only one, she's around the right age, she's in the right place, and her mother is widowed:

Name: Ada F Hicks
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1879
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Sophia Hicks
Where born: Ireland

Civil parish: Paddington
County/Island: London
Address: 3 Alfred Road

Sophia Hicks 53 - charwoman, born Dalston
Ada F Hicks 22 - linen machinist shirt
Ellison E Hicks 13 - it's Ellinor - born Paddington
Florence Hicks 12 - born Paddington

Just a place to start ruling in/out.

Did Minnie have an occupation on her marriage certificate? An address? Who were the witnesses?

People did change their names at will, and the early 1900s saw quite a few women ditching their old-fashioned names for newer ones. I tracked down one here a while back who married as Kathleen Marion, and turned out to have been born plain old Kate Mary. My grandmother was born in 1896 as Lily, but married as Lilian; my grandfather thought Lily was too common.

Here's that 1901 household in 1891:

Name: William Hicks
Age: 49
Estimated birth year: abt 1842
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Sophia Hicks
Where born: Farringdon, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: Paddington

William Hicks 49 - Furniture Potter (?)
(ah, the census people have written "Cabt" beside it, but I think it really says Furniture Porter)
Sophia Hicks 44
Ada Hicks 12
Albert Hicks 10
Helena Hicks 3
Florence Hicks 2

Looks like that William was maybe in the mlitary.

In trying to rule out that Ada F Hicks, I found this marriage:

Marriages Mar 1903
Collier Sarah Jane Shoreditch 1c 189
> Hicks Ada Florence Shoreditch 1c 189
Salmon George Shoreditch 1c 189
Warwick James Somerville Shoreditch 1c 189
(followed by Warwick-Hicks births)

But I think that will be this Ada:

Births Sep 1880
Hicks Ada Florence St. Saviour 1d 174

His birth is in the civil registration site for Irish records:

Name: Frederick Charles Gurney
Registration District: Kinsale
Event Type: BIRTHS
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1882
Film Number: 101058
Volume Number: 5
Page Number: 395
Digital Folder Number: 4193459
Image Number: 00422
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958


http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347

Here's that Hicks household in 1881:

William Hicks 39 - Labourer Rl Dock Yard (it's not RI ?)
Sophia Elizabeth Hicks 34
William Henry Hicks 13
Sophia Elizabeth Hicks 11
John Hicks 6
Ada Frances Hicks 2 - born Curragh Camp, Ireland
Albert Hicks
Civil parish: Plumstead
County/Island: London

So she was Ada Frances Hicks. There's a marriage for that name 1907 in Sculcoates.

Marriages Jun 1907
GRAY Herbert Sculcoates 9d 385
HICKS Ada Frances Sculcoates 9d 385
NOBLE Alfred Sculcoates 9d 385
SMITH Helen Lee Sculcoates 9d 385

1911

NOBLE ADA FRANCES 1884 27 Sculcoates

Not a good match for the one in the censuses in London.
(followed by Noble-Hicks births in Sculcoates)


What was William's occupation on Minnie's marriage certificate?

See all the info you have that we don't??

Aha, Joy! So is the marriage:

Name: Frederick Charles Gurney
Registration District: Cork
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1881
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

Searching for Minnie marrying in the same place, same year:

Name: Minnie Fitzgerald
Registration District: Cork
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1881
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

The citation info is the same:

Film Number: 101254
Volume Number: 5
Page Number: 93
Digital Folder Number: 4179387
Image Number: 00023 (for Minnie)
Image Number: 00027 (for Frederick)
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

(I don't know whether the different image numbers mean anything)

But the birth certificate for a child born in England is still an excellent idea for confirmation.

Minnie Hick's marriage cert has minnie as the name and gen labourer as occupation of her father. I know that she was a servant at the time and ernest was a butler - possibly at the great western hotel at paddington (only familiy hearsay but its possible)

the witnesses were unrelated.

Ernest herbert Baker was born in southrepps, norfolk. i've been able to go as far back as the censuses go with his line.

William Hicks it seems was also born in cork, but i can't seem to find any trace of him either.

could someone clarify the stuff about frederick jr or sr's mother that married jenkins?

thanks!

Luisa, I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the feeling you're paying much attention. I posted a lot of info and you've given no acknowledgement or response, to myself or Joy.

Not even to the information about Frederick Gurney Sr, which you specifically asked about: his date of birth, which I had given earlier.

Not even to the marriage of Frederick Gurney Sr and MINNIE FITZGERALD.

And not even full answers -- Minnie's *age* on the marriage certificate?

How do you know the witnesses were unrelated? For all we know, one could be a married sister of Minnie or the husband of a married sister. If you just give the names, those sorts of things can be investigated.

The idea is to provide the information you have. If you'd like to do that ...

You edited your last post.

No Ernest Herbert Baker was ever born in Norfolk.

This is him, presumably:

Births Jun 1881
BAKER Ernest Ebie Erpingham 4b 61

Somehow I missed that the previous time around.

It doesn't help to refer to people by names that don't appear in records.


"could someone clarify the stuff about frederick jr or sr's mother that married jenkins?"

Sylvia said it's from someone's tree on Ancestry. It looks like trash to me. But it's possible that Frederick Sr's father was Mr Jenkins, and they just didn't marry until after his birth (married 1862). **Frederick Sr's birth certificate** might tell you.

**We keep telling you** that if you don't subscribe to Ancestry, you can do it for free for 14 days, and **contact that person** and **ask them** about anything in their tree.

1871

Civil parish: Upton On Severn
County/Island: Worcestershire
Registration district: Upton On Severn

Ambrose Jenkins 39
Ann Jenkins 33
Frederick Gurney Jenkins 11
Ambrose Jenkins 9
Charles Jenkins 7
Edwin Jenkins 5
Arthur Jenkins 2


1861

Name: Frederick Guerney
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relation: Grandson
Where born: Welland, Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Welland
County/Island: Worcestershire

Philip Guerney 64
Mary Guerney 54
Ann Guerney 22
John Guerney 14
William Guerney 5 - also grandson
Frederick Guerney 1

Please do have a search on the site that gives Irish civil registrations -
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347
An index of Ireland civil registration including births, 1864-1958, marriages, 1845-1958, and deaths, 1864-1958.

Then send for the certificates, please.

And please search the free 1901 and 1911 census for Ireland for information about, perhaps, other family in Ireland, and read about Ireland in those times in this site -
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

And you could post, too, on the rootsweb mailing list for Cork:
http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/IRL/

Thank you. Happy hunting :-)

Joy - thanks for that, i did look late last night at the family search stuff for ireland and found stuff for frederick jr, and mary (or minnie) fiztgerald but no one else. Both the censuses have come up with nothing so far, but i'll give it another go.

Janey - I'm sorry, I am paying as much attention to what is being said here, It is difficult as i am a new comer to this kind of thing, and I have a lot of conflicting information. On some documents Minnie Hicks is spelt Mini and others Minnie, the middle name Nemi has also come up in one place and not others, Ernest Baker has sometimes used the middle name Herbert and other times Ebbie or Ebie. On their marriage cert it just gives the age as full - but it was in 1907, so with vague ideas from censuses I guess that could be worked out like that.

I shall try ancestry again tonight, it wouldn't let me do the trial last night but maybe it will tonight.

The witnesses were 2 men, with unrelated names, so I didn't understand how they could be related unless they were cousins.

I'm a little concerned about the Frederick sr situation, because I have just made contact with someone who is a decendent of ernest archdale gurney, and i'm really unsure where this Jenkins name comes in and if this is correct or not. I guess the only way of finding out if by getting a birth cert from the irish records office...