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Just a note - if you search the 1881 census by occupation "lancers" and no other criteria, all of the results are men in 16 Lancers (in England, of course). There's one Hicks, but he's a Herbert.

Actually, searching for "17 lancers" produces two results, one an invalid, so obviously the 17 Lancers were elsewhere. ;) (They were sent to South Africa in 1879.) "19 lancers" produces no results.

Well, I suppose all I can do is caution against taking what people said on their marriage certificates as gospel. They may not have known what their father's occupation was, whether he was living or dead ... or even what his name was. They may not even have known their own name assigned at birth ... or may have chosen not to declare it ...

A mother dying in childbirth wouldn't prevent there being a record of the death. If she was married, the death would be recorded in her married surname. If she wasn't, and if the child was then registered in her own surname, you simply don't know what to look for, even if it's available someplace like the familyseach site.

If you assume that what she reported was all correct, I'd certainly start by viewing the discharge papers available at FMP, as I posted, for any possible William Hicks.

Sorry Janey! I've just realised that I've missed out something really important on the marriage cert from minnie hicks and Ernest Baker - it states Minnie's father as deceased, but no date (obviously). But the occupation is definatly something lancer - so army rather than any other service.

I'm going to have another look at what regiments of lancers where near to cork near the time of minnie's birth, and see if i can find anything. Is it possible that her mother died during childbirth (thus why on the latter day saints family search site, there is no record of her mother, just her father), and that William died in action between this time and her marriage?

I guess its a case of some how getting a birth cert for minnie (if i can find her birth name), and/or getting a death cert for William, in which case i suppose I just need to trawl deaths between 1881 - 1907.

Frederick Sr's service is the obvious and only reason why Frederick Jr was born in Ireland. And yes, I was neglecting the fact that Frederick Sr's mother seems to have been Irish. It was quite common for men in the British military to marry Irish women. Sometimes then then ended up having children in Canada or elsewhere in Empire.

You won't find Minnie Hicks's mother unless we find her in a census, or her birth. It certainly seems that her father was also English, given the occupation she stated when she married.


I've poked somewhat intensively at censuses. I find this William Hicks interesting in 1891.

Name: William E Hicks
Age: 46
Estimated birth year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary A Hicks
Where born: Penryn, Cornwall, England
Occupation: Retired Officer RN

Name: Mary A Hicks
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: William E Hicks
Where born: Bassalleg, Monmouthshire, Wales

Civil parish: Paddington
County/Island: London
Address: 14 Westbourne Terrace North


That address is a mere couple of blocks from the Great Western Railway (now Hilton) Hotel, at Paddington Station.

The household's next door neighbour is a hotel porter.


Obviously the wife is much younger so this could be a second marriage. Possibly one in which a child of a first marriage wasn't wanted -- or, if he had been widowed shortly after her birth, she was reared by other family.

Marriages Dec 1886
? Fitzmaurice Mary Ann Kensington 1a 381
FREEMAN George Thomas Kensington 1a 381
> Hicks William Ernest Kensington 1a 381
Moore Susanna Cecilia Kensington 1a 381
PHILLIPS Mary Kensington 1a 381

Nope - editing after I got to the end of this thing ;) -- they will be these:

Marriages Sep 1888
Hicks William Earle Newport, M. 11a 2[38]4
Edmunds Mary Ann Newport M 11a 284
(there's a groom missing on 284)

and so this child is theirs:

Births Jun 1891
Hicks William Earle Marylebone 1a 589
Deaths Mar 1892
Hicks William Earle 0 Paddington 1a 9

And now to revise the rest ...


Births Mar 1845
HICKS William Earle Falmouth 9 84

Marriages Mar 1872
Godden Agnes Emily Chester 8a 513
Hicks William Earle Chester 8a 513
(parish record confirms that pair at pilot.familysearch).

Births Dec 1846
Godden Agnes Emily Wirral 19 346

1871

Name: Agnes E Godden
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Niece
Where born: Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Civil parish: Uplyme
Town: Uplyme
County/Island: Devon

After that, I can't find them. Although this death is interesting -- although the age is way off, there's no other marriage of an Agnes Emily to a Hicks and no Agnes Emily Hicks birth:

Deaths Dec 1908
HICKS Agnes Emily 50 Wandsworth 1d 277

Had William deserted the family (or his wife left him), and so Minnie didn't actually know whether he was living or not, and what his actual occupation was? As you say, the occupation she gave doesn't square with being in Ireland. I wonder who registered that death. "50" could be a guess for a woman who had a child c1881.

I can't find that person in 1901 or 1891. I wonder whether she was living with a partner and using his surname ... possibly for her child as well ...


I wonder whether he might be this one.

1871

Name: William Hicks
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1844
Relation: Fellow (the entry makes no sense)
Where born: Fawrey, Cornwall, England
Occupation: Railway Serv.
Condition as to marriage: Unmarried

Civil parish: Paddington

1881

Name: William Hicks
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1844
Relation: Brother
Where born: Fowey, Cornwall, England
Occupation: Railway Porter
Condition as to marriage: Widow

Civil parish: Fowey
County/Island: Cornwall

Fowey and Penryn aren't very close, however.


But he'd definitely be this one:

Name: William E Hicks
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1845
Relation: Assistant Clerk (Assistant)
Where born: Penryn, Cornwall, England

Civil parish: Vessels
Town: Corfu Roads
County/Island: Royal Navy

Registration district: Royal Navy
ED, institution, or vessel: Orion


and if so might not be in later censuses.



Here's my wild theory. The William E Hicks in Paddington in 1891 is our man. His daughter was born in Ireland, and possibly his first wife died there. His daughter might have been reared by her mother's family in Ireland, or elsewhere in England and we just haven't found her, and joined him sometime before 1907 and taken employment at the nearby hotel.

Wild theories are sometimes true, sometimes not. ;)

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=/eng/search/ancestorsearchresults.asp

Also used when searching for her son who died in 1941

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=/eng/search/ancestorsearchresults.asp

I understand that i won't get any information about Frederick Sr's father from his son's birth cert, but i thought i might from his own. I thought it odd, that Ann Gurney had 2 illegitimate children (frederick Sr and another named william 2 years previous) and then married and had countless more children. I thought that she might have been a widower, and had re-married but it turns out this is not the case.

I have since found out that both William Hicks (father of Minnie Hicks/Baker) was a soldier, and so were both Fredericks (Sr's service it seems might be the link to why Frederick was born in Ireland, which i suppose makes him Irish by birth and his mother's decent). Frederick Jr enlisted during WW1.

I've had no luck whatsoever with tracing Minnie Hicks's mother!

FMP has 19th century military records (I found my grx3 grfather born c1796 there, recently).

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/chelsea-pensioners-service-records-collection-search-start.action

You might want to have a look at the possible William Hicks-s -- say, born 1830-1865 -- and see whether anything for any of them seems to match the info on the marriage certificate.


Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Record
British Army Service Records 1760-1913
Last name First name(s) Year of birth Place of birth

HICKS William Henry 1830 Birmingham, Staffordshire
HICKS William Alfred 1832 Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
HICKS William 1839 Blanford, Dorset
HICKS William 1841 Farringdon, Buckinghamshire
HICKS William 1848 Loronbo, Yorkshire
HICKS William 1850 Chester, Cheshire
HICKS William 1852 London, Surrey
HICKS William 1858 Ludlow, Shropshire
HICKS William 1860 Stourbridge,
HICKS William 1862 Bristol, Gloucestershire
HICKS William 1864 Calne, Wiltshire

"The name Nemi comes from a search i did on family search (latter day saints site)."

I still have no idea what that means, or how you have connected it with Minnie Hicks.


Name: Minnie Baker
Death Registration Month/Year: 1968
Age at death (estimated): 87
Registration district: Cardiff
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 8b
Page: 214

That makes a DOB of 1880-1881, at least to the knowledge of the person who registered the death. That *could* be more acccurate than the 1882-1883 DOB per the 1911 census.



For the witnesses, I've done a bit of searching and don't see any connection with any of the family names here, but it's still always worth checking!

For the life of me I am not understanding.

"I shall see what I can do in order to get the irish birth cert for Frederick Jr, is there an online service like there is for british ones?
And i guess its a case of wait and see if there is a father's name (as long as frederick Sr isn't an illegitamate child, just a stepchild and a maiden name for his mother if that is so)"

The birth certificate for Frederick Jr is not going to tell you whether Frederick Sr is an illegitimate child.

Frederick Jr was registered in his father's surname -- Gurney. So Frederick Sr used the surname Gurney as an adult.

Frederick Sr *was* an illegitimate child. His stepfather recorded him in a census as his son, with the addition of the Jenkins surname, in 1871. As I explained, this means nothing, in terms of who his father was. In our day, a man who married a woman with a child born before the marriage, whose father was another man, might well adopt the child formally. In 1871, there was no such thing as adoption. The child was simply taken into the family by the stepfather and called by the stepfather's name. But the child's name didn't actually change -- although *some* stepchildren did use their unofficial name officially in later life.

Frederick Gurney Sr was born to the unmarried Ann Gurney and was living with her and her parents in 1861. She then married Jenkins. Only the birth certificate for *Frederick Sr* will tell you whether his father was named. If not, you will never know who his father was, short of getting a DNA match between one of his male-line descendants and someone else.

The birth certificate for Frederick Jr will tell you *his* parents' names, although we seem to have established that from the existence of the marriage records for Frederick Gurney and Minnie Fitzgerald.

You want to see *that* marriage certificate just in case Frederick Sr named his father, which is very unlikely. ..... Ah, maybe that's what you meant when you referred to his father's name .... or maybe you meant on Frederick Sr's birth certificate ...

Of course Frederick Jr's father's name will be on *his* birth certificate! His parents married the year before he was born!

http://www.groireland.ie/apply_for_a_cert.htm
To apply for a certificate please download the appropriate form below as an Adobe Acrobat PDF file.

I shall see what I can do in order to get the irish birth cert for Frederick Jr, is there an online service like there is for british ones?

And i guess its a case of wait and see if there is a father's name (as long as frederick Sr isn't an illegitamate child, just a stepchild and a maiden name for his mother if that is so)

The name Nemi comes from a search i did on family search (latter day saints site). Minnie Hicks/baker married in kensington 1907, and died in cardiff 1968. Nemi is a name popular in Scandanavian countries, but unlikely, unless there is some connect there.

The witnesses: i have looked, and i think i've got it wrong, i have so many certs for similarly named family members that i must have picked up the wrong one! sorry!! Their names are A H Hinton and R J Martin. I have a feeling they were male employees at the great western railway hotel at paddington, but its just a hunch from family hearsay. Also the age of both Minnie and Ernest is 26. The occupation of william hicks, is very unclear on the certficate - 17th or 19th lancers, i really can't tell. I have had a quick look though, and it seems neither were based in ireland...

any ideas as to where I head next with that line of thought?

I've ruled out Ada Frances Hicks as being Minnie. For interest, this is her birth record:

Name: Ada Hicks
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 12 Nov 1878
Birthplace: Cunagh Camp, Kildare, Ireland
Father's Name: William Hicks
Mother's Name: Sophia Elizabeth Hicks Woodhouse
Collection: Ireland Births and Baptisms, 1620-1881

But she is in the 1911 census as Ada Hicks in Paddington, with mother Sophia and siblings. That's what has to get done, though. Consider possibilities, and rule them out if possible.


You say the middle name Nemi has "come up". Is there really any reason for you still to be not telling us *where*, what the sources of information are?

I doubt very much that Nemi is a name, middle or otherwise.


It's worth remembering that Frederick Gurney Jr wasn't Irish at all. He was born in Ireland, while his father was posted there with the British military.

Minnie Hicks just wasn't necessarily "Irish"; she may simply have been born in Ireland to English parents. (Hicks is a very Cornwall name, for info.)


Can you tell us when/where Minnie Hicks Baker died? Her stated age or birthdate in her death record would be useful information.

Well, if you don't want to tell us the two witnesses' names, that's fine.

If they happened to be husbands of sisters of the bride or groom (a not uncommon situation), it would be an unfortunate source of info to miss, but there you go.

You have Frederick Sr's birth registration details, and you have him in the 1861 and 1871 censuses from me. His mother married Jenkins some three years after his birth. His birth certificate might name a father (it is extremely unlikely), but you can't know unless you purchase it.

I have no idea what you're concerned about re Frederick Sr. I have explained at least once how the Jenkins name comes in. Please, Luisa, are you reading?

Frederick Sr was born in 1859.
In the 1861 census he is with his mother Ann.
She married Ambrose Jenkins in 1862.
In the 1871 census, he is "Frederick Gurney Jenkins", with his mother, stepfather and halfsiblings.
His name is Frederick Gurney. He is going by his stapfather's surname.
This was extremely common. There was no formal adoption possible for another several decades, and children commonly just used their stepfather's surname, even officially (e.g. when they married).

I don't see what the problem is. It's all right here in the thread, quite clearly laid out.

The Jenkins surname has *nothing to do* with Frederick Jr born in Ireland. Jenkins was that Frederick's father's stepfather's surname. The stepfather of Frederick *Sr* was Jenkins. Frederick Sr appears *not* to have ever used that surname as an adult. The Irish birth certificate, for Frederick Jr, is undoubtedly going to show his parents as Frederick Gurney and (if we are right) Minnie (or Mary) Fitzgerald.



I just did a quick search of the 1901 Irish census at the ink Joy gave, for Minnie Hicks.

The search function is confusing. I ask to search the 1901 census, but I am asked for "Age + or - 5 years (in 1911)".

So I tried both:
18 +/- 5 years (which Minnie would have been in 1901, per the 1911 census)
28 +/- 5 years (which she was in 1911)

It seems to be a misprint, and it really refers to the age in 1901.

There is no Minnie Hicks at all, and there is no Mary Hicks anywhere near the right age, in Cork. There is no Minnie Hicks anywhere in Ireland. There are several Mary Hicks-s, which you might want to look at; unfortunately, the ones I took a quick look at had no father in the household.

Joy - thanks for that, i did look late last night at the family search stuff for ireland and found stuff for frederick jr, and mary (or minnie) fiztgerald but no one else. Both the censuses have come up with nothing so far, but i'll give it another go.

Janey - I'm sorry, I am paying as much attention to what is being said here, It is difficult as i am a new comer to this kind of thing, and I have a lot of conflicting information. On some documents Minnie Hicks is spelt Mini and others Minnie, the middle name Nemi has also come up in one place and not others, Ernest Baker has sometimes used the middle name Herbert and other times Ebbie or Ebie. On their marriage cert it just gives the age as full - but it was in 1907, so with vague ideas from censuses I guess that could be worked out like that.

I shall try ancestry again tonight, it wouldn't let me do the trial last night but maybe it will tonight.

The witnesses were 2 men, with unrelated names, so I didn't understand how they could be related unless they were cousins.

I'm a little concerned about the Frederick sr situation, because I have just made contact with someone who is a decendent of ernest archdale gurney, and i'm really unsure where this Jenkins name comes in and if this is correct or not. I guess the only way of finding out if by getting a birth cert from the irish records office...

Please do have a search on the site that gives Irish civil registrations -
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347
An index of Ireland civil registration including births, 1864-1958, marriages, 1845-1958, and deaths, 1864-1958.

Then send for the certificates, please.

And please search the free 1901 and 1911 census for Ireland for information about, perhaps, other family in Ireland, and read about Ireland in those times in this site -
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

And you could post, too, on the rootsweb mailing list for Cork:
http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/intl/IRL/

Thank you. Happy hunting :-)

1871

Civil parish: Upton On Severn
County/Island: Worcestershire
Registration district: Upton On Severn

Ambrose Jenkins 39
Ann Jenkins 33
Frederick Gurney Jenkins 11
Ambrose Jenkins 9
Charles Jenkins 7
Edwin Jenkins 5
Arthur Jenkins 2


1861

Name: Frederick Guerney
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relation: Grandson
Where born: Welland, Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: Welland
County/Island: Worcestershire

Philip Guerney 64
Mary Guerney 54
Ann Guerney 22
John Guerney 14
William Guerney 5 - also grandson
Frederick Guerney 1

You edited your last post.

No Ernest Herbert Baker was ever born in Norfolk.

This is him, presumably:

Births Jun 1881
BAKER Ernest Ebie Erpingham 4b 61

Somehow I missed that the previous time around.

It doesn't help to refer to people by names that don't appear in records.


"could someone clarify the stuff about frederick jr or sr's mother that married jenkins?"

Sylvia said it's from someone's tree on Ancestry. It looks like trash to me. But it's possible that Frederick Sr's father was Mr Jenkins, and they just didn't marry until after his birth (married 1862). **Frederick Sr's birth certificate** might tell you.

**We keep telling you** that if you don't subscribe to Ancestry, you can do it for free for 14 days, and **contact that person** and **ask them** about anything in their tree.

Luisa, I'm sorry, but I'm not getting the feeling you're paying much attention. I posted a lot of info and you've given no acknowledgement or response, to myself or Joy.

Not even to the information about Frederick Gurney Sr, which you specifically asked about: his date of birth, which I had given earlier.

Not even to the marriage of Frederick Gurney Sr and MINNIE FITZGERALD.

And not even full answers -- Minnie's *age* on the marriage certificate?

How do you know the witnesses were unrelated? For all we know, one could be a married sister of Minnie or the husband of a married sister. If you just give the names, those sorts of things can be investigated.

The idea is to provide the information you have. If you'd like to do that ...

Minnie Hick's marriage cert has minnie as the name and gen labourer as occupation of her father. I know that she was a servant at the time and ernest was a butler - possibly at the great western hotel at paddington (only familiy hearsay but its possible)

the witnesses were unrelated.

Ernest herbert Baker was born in southrepps, norfolk. i've been able to go as far back as the censuses go with his line.

William Hicks it seems was also born in cork, but i can't seem to find any trace of him either.

could someone clarify the stuff about frederick jr or sr's mother that married jenkins?

thanks!

Aha, Joy! So is the marriage:

Name: Frederick Charles Gurney
Registration District: Cork
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1881
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

Searching for Minnie marrying in the same place, same year:

Name: Minnie Fitzgerald
Registration District: Cork
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Jan - Mar 1881
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

The citation info is the same:

Film Number: 101254
Volume Number: 5
Page Number: 93
Digital Folder Number: 4179387
Image Number: 00023 (for Minnie)
Image Number: 00027 (for Frederick)
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958

(I don't know whether the different image numbers mean anything)

But the birth certificate for a child born in England is still an excellent idea for confirmation.

Here's that Hicks household in 1881:

William Hicks 39 - Labourer Rl Dock Yard (it's not RI ?)
Sophia Elizabeth Hicks 34
William Henry Hicks 13
Sophia Elizabeth Hicks 11
John Hicks 6
Ada Frances Hicks 2 - born Curragh Camp, Ireland
Albert Hicks
Civil parish: Plumstead
County/Island: London

So she was Ada Frances Hicks. There's a marriage for that name 1907 in Sculcoates.

Marriages Jun 1907
GRAY Herbert Sculcoates 9d 385
HICKS Ada Frances Sculcoates 9d 385
NOBLE Alfred Sculcoates 9d 385
SMITH Helen Lee Sculcoates 9d 385

1911

NOBLE ADA FRANCES 1884 27 Sculcoates

Not a good match for the one in the censuses in London.
(followed by Noble-Hicks births in Sculcoates)


What was William's occupation on Minnie's marriage certificate?

See all the info you have that we don't??