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Try this site " http://romanyconnections.wetpaint.com " They may be able to help, Its a friendly site with people that find they have a connection with Romany/Gypsy in their family.

I'm not understanding the significance of that 1901 Russian-born Barnard household.

The son Joe in the family is 10 years too young to be the Joseph in question.

I'd be happy for any feedback on the Barnett-Barnard theory from anyone.

I believe that Paula is aware of the composition of the household in 1911; as she said:

Amelia Maria Lovage married Joseph Barnard in 1902 in Dartford Kent,
They had the following children:
Jane Amelia Barnard 1903 Dartford
Rose Barnard 1906 Dartford
Betsy Barnard 1908 maidstone
known as Boxer about 1910-1914 either born in Kent or West Ham, Essex.
Charles Barnard 1915 West Ham
John Barnard 1925


That is why I was able to eliminate that family group when looking at the Barnards in West Ham residing with a Betsy Barnard, leaving me with the ones I listed above -- the ones who bear the eerie resemblance to the Barnett household in 1891 and 1901, in which there is a Joseph Barnett who matches Paula's Joseph Barnard:

Name: Joseph Barnett
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Charles
Where born: Edmonton, Middlesex, England
>>>> which includes TOTTENHAM

and also the Joseph Barnard in 1911, allowing for what seems to have been considerable slippage in birthdates all round.

Unless I have simply discovered an eerily coincidental duo of families, which I think is rather unlikely.

But the *marriage certificates* for both couples -- Lee+Barnard and Lovage+Barnard -- are needed to test this hypothesis.

1901

Name: Joe Barnard
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1892
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Betsy
Gender: Male
Where born: St Commerciall, London, England

Civil Parish: Mile End Old Town
Ecclesiastical parish: St Phillip Stepney
Town: Mile End Old Town
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Sub registration district: Mile End, Old Town, Western
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 5
Household Members: Name Age
John Barnard 33 BORN 1868 RUSSIA
Betsy Barnard 30 BRON 1871 RUSSIA
Joe Barnard 9
Sarah Barnard 7
John Barnard 3




Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 325; Folio: 123; Page: 1.

Joseph & Amelia in 1911

BARNARD, JOE HEAD MARRIED 10 M 30 LABOURER GENERAL TOTTHAM MIDDLESEX
BARNARD, AMELIA WIFE MARRIED F 27 ERITH KENT
BARNARD, JANE DAUGHTER F 8 SCHOOL DARTFORD KENT
BARNARD, ROSE DAUGHTER F 6 SCHOOL CRAYFORD KENT
BARNARD, BETSY DAUGHTER F 4 MARDEN KENT
BARNARD, JOE SON M 1 FOOTS CRAY KENT

BARNARD AMELIA (RG14PN9484 RG78PN508 RD188 SD4 ED14 SN104)
Address 24 MARTINDALE ROAD CUSTOM HOUSE WEST HAM County Essex
District West Ham Subdistrict Canning Town
Enumeration District 14 Parish West Ham


NB Joseph is JOE born 1881 Tottenham

And if anybody actually is following my posts and train of thought -- I think I have found that Joseph Barnard. And the Betsy Barnard who married Phineas Lee. Brother and sister, children of Charles and Louisa.

They are in the 1891 and 1901 censuses as Barnett, and in the 1911 census as Barnard.

This is a theory at present. The two marriage certificates:

Betsy Barnard + Lee
Joseph Barnard + Lovage

are needed, for comparison.

What I don't quite understand is why the people looking for Joseph who married Lovage, and Betsy who married Lee, haven't got their marriage certificates now.

Yes, Victoria, that's the Joseph, and that is why I said above:


Oh - and ***the Joseph Barnard + Lovage marriage certificate***?
You're looking for him in censuses without knowing what his father's name is?
Or am I missing it?


Y'know, I kind of feel invisible some days ...

The 1901 Barnett household has a Rose:

Name: Rose Barnett
Age: 9 months
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1900
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Charles
Where born: Orpington, Kent, England

There's no Rose Barnett birth to match, but there sure is a Rose Barnard:

Births Sep 1900
Barnard Rose Bromley 2a 498

is the Joseph Barnard the father of Betsy Louisa the one you are looking for.


if so buy the marriage cert of Joseph and Amelia Lovage.

Looking for Betsy Barnard in 1911, we have two in West Ham -- yours (the daughter of Barnard and Lovage) and the one who married Phineas Lee.

Looking in West Ham for Barnards in a household where there is a Betsy Barnard, and hiving off the ones who aren't part of the Barnard-Lovage crew, we get:

BARNARD CHARLES M 1853 58 West Ham Essex
BARNARD LOUISA F 1857 54 West Ham Essex
BARNARD BETSY F 1889 22 West Ham Essex
BARNARD JANE F 1896 15 West Ham Essex
BARNARD ROSE F 1898 13 West Ham Essex

Compare and contrast with the 1901 Barnett household:

Charles Barnett 48
Louisa Barnett 45
Betsy Barnett 10
Rose Barnett 9 months

Eerie similarity, I'd say.

Hasn't somebody got the Betsy Barnard + Phineas Lee marriage cert yet to get her parents' names?

Oh - and the Joseph Barnard + Lovage marriage certificate? You're looking for him in censuses without knowing what his father's name is? Or am I missing it?


All Barnards must be mistranscribed as Barnett at least once in their lives.
Have you considered these?

1901

Civil Parish: Orpington
Town: Orpington
County/Island: Kent
Registration district: Bromley

Charles Barnett 48 - farm labourer, born Chelmsford
Louisa Barnett 45 - born Norwich
> Joseph Barnett 18 - plate layer railway, born Edmonton
John Barnett 16 - horse man on farm, born Edmonton
William Barnett 14 - born Edmonton
> Betsy Barnett 10 - born Edmonton
Rose Barnett 9 months - born Orpington


Various points fit.

But nah, they were Barnett in 1891 in Edmonton too ...

Although ... in 1891 Charles was a general labourer and Louisa was a fruit hawker. Still fits ...

I'm still feeling muddled.


"Phineas Lee married Betsy Barnard in 1911.
Phineas (1891) is the son of David Lee (1842)
David is son of Zachariah Lee (1779) Zachariah is my 4* g-grandfather"

Sharon is looking for information on betsy barnard born about 1890
You are looking for joseph barnard born about 1880


But Betsy Barnard born about 1890 - who married Phineas Lee - is your grx2 grandmother?

And ha. In my experience, all Barnards in all places and all times are Richard, Thomas and Benjamin. They're the non-Roma ones, I guess. ;)

confusing i know lol
betsy louisa Barnard born 1907 in maidstone kent
and Betsy Barnard who married phineas Lee 1911
are not the same person.
Joseph and betsy louisa are father and daughter.
Joseph and Betsy not sure there, maybe Brother and sister or cousins

Evie, i have been in contact with sharon but we both seem to be lost shes looking for information on betsy barnard born about 1890 and i am looking for joseph barnard born about 1880. tried census using joseph and Betsy but no links so far hoping to find parents.
thank you for the link

all i do know is betsy, jane, rose, charlie, joe, jack/john are common barnard names

I know from joseph down i cant even trace birth am trying older realitives to see if they can recall, any information.

Thank you all for the feed back really appricated.

Betsy Lousia Barnards marriage
Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1927 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BARNARD Betsy L Robinson W.Ham 4a 187
KNIGHTS Winifred E McCARTNEY W. Ham 4a 187
McCartney Daniel R Knights W.Ham 4a 187
ROBINSON Joseph H BARNARD W. Ham 4a 187

The Betsy who married Phineas Lee is most likely Joseph's sister or other relation.

if you order the certs you'll get father's names, ages etc

1901 Amelia Lovage
Name: Amelia Lovage
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Marie
Gender: Female
Where born: Erith, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Bexley
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Dartford
Sub registration district: Bexley
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 16
Household Members: Name Age
William Lovage 53 b. 1848 Northfleet kent agricultural labourer
Marie Lovage 55 b. 1846 Crayford Kent
Amelia Lovage 19
George Lovage 9
Charles Marchant 29 son in law
Charles Marchant 6 grandson


Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 696; Folio: 138; Page: 3.

Source Information

marriage of Josph and Amelia
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1902 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barnard Joseph Dartford 2a 1215
Blight Lotty Dartford 2a 1215
Jennings George Dartford 2a 1215
Lovage Amelia Maria Dartford 2a 1215

Births Mar 1903 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barnard Jane Amelia Dartford 2a 599

married Sidney McCabe West Ham June 1922

marriage
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1911 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barber Elizabeth W. Ham 4a 399
BARNARD Betsy W.Ham 4a 399
Lee Phineas W. Ham 4a 399
Stone Alfred J W.Ham 4a 399

have you ordered this certificate?
this can't be the same betsy, the other message suggests that her actual name is Elizabeth b1892 Hoo Kent

is this Betsy?
Name: Betsy Louisa Barnard
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Maidstone
County: Kent
Volume: 2a
Page: 830 (

If we just look at the Barnard

you say
Joseph Barnard is the father of Betsy who was born 1908 in Maidestone
but you say she married in 1911?

is that right?

V.