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Richard Duke and Mary Williams lived together well before they were married.

In 1901 he was shown as born in Cheam, Surrey.

I have no idea what this one means - check the image maye!


1891

Name: Richard Duke
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Where born: Syrian Arab Republic, Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Milton
Town: Gravesend
County/Island: Kent

Richard Duke 26
Mary Duke 22
Charles Duke 10
> Kate Duke 5
Chralotte Duke 3
Ellen Duke 1
Richard Duke 1

Charles, e.g., is shown as a son here, but as a stepson in 1901.

Trying to figure out whether Celia Kate really was Richard Duke's daughter, although registered as Williams because the parents weren't married.


1881 - Richard is on his own:

Name: Richard Duke
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Brother
Where born: Cheam, Surrey, England
Occupation: Brickyard Lab

Civil Parish: Cheam
County/Island: Surrey
Street address: Cheam Common
Registration district: Epsom


And here we are -- Mary Williams was with her husband:

Name: Mary A. Williams
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas
Where born: Broomfield, Kent, England
Condition as to marriage: Married

Civil Parish: Harrietsham
County/Island: Kent
Registration district: Hollingbourn

Thomas Williams 26
Mary A. Williams 23
> Thomas Williams 6
Alfred Williams 3
> Charlie Williams

The two sons of Mary Williams / stepsons of Richard Duke in the 1901.


You need to get the Celia Kate Williams birth cert to see whether her father was named!

Marriages Dec 1874
Chambers Eliza Mercy Hollingbourne 2a 1063
> Finch Mary Ann Hollingbourn 2a 1063
Tassell Thomas Hollingbourn 2a 1063
> WILLIAMS Thomas Hollingbourne 2a 1063


Celia Kate Williams's mother's marriage to Thomas Williams, who may or may not have been CKW's father.

The marriage certificate for my grandmother is on it's way. Lets hope that reduces the wood to let us see the trees.

Brian, it would be nice to have a little feedback. As you can see from the time stamps, I spent about an hour yesterday finding all that info.

I think the sequence is pretty evident here.

Celia Kate was the child of Mary Williams.
Who her father was, we can't be sure without the birth certificate (and possibly not then).

Mary Williams was Mary Finch who married Thomas Williams.

She subsequently married Richard Duke -- in 1898. But she was already living with him in 1891. The usual situation would be that she was estranged from her husband and married her new partner after the husband died. That is common.

Celia Kate married William Hayward Walter in 1904, as Celia Kate Williams.
William Hayward Walter was killed in WWI.

She then married Walter Sabine as Celia Kate Walter, her first married surname.

But, presumably because she regarded Richard Duke as her father (which he may in fact have been), she called herself Celia Kate Duke when registering the births of her children.

Any thoughts?

It will indeed be interesting to see what the certificate of Celia Kate's marriage to Walter Sabine says!

But it just might not be accurate. Her birth certificate is what you need -- even though it might not be accurate either (if it names Thomas Williams as her father, when it's possible Richard Duke was) or helpful (if it names no father - but that would suggest Richard Duke).

Another interesting bit of info -- the 1911 census.


WALTER CELIA K F 1886 25 Gravesend Kent
WALTER CHARLES S M 1907 4 Gravesend Kent
WALTER WILLIAM H M 1882 29 Gravesend Kent


That is, Celia had at least one child in her first marriage:

Births Jun 1907
WALTER Charles Sydney Gravesend 2a 702


There was no other Charles Walter birth registered in that quarter of 1907. So this could be his death:

Name: Charles Walter
Birth Date: 29 May 1907
Death Registration Month/Year: Jun 1997
Age at death (estimated): 90
Registration district: Uckfield
Inferred County: Sussex
Register number: 36E
District and Subdistrict: 4611
Entry Number: 10

Sorry for the delay but I had to go away for a few days. However success.
The person I had thought to be Celia Kate Duke was in fact Celia Kate Williams daughter of Richard John Williams, Engineer, resident at Wellington St in Milton, Kent. The marriage took place on 24th April 1904 at Christ Church Milton and was witnessed by Richard, Lottie and Nellie Duke.

So I now have got to refile my grandmother and start on a new branch of the family. However this has got me no nearer to finding out anything about Walter James Sabine, my grandfather.

You're really very very welcome, Brian.

Btw, I suspect you'll find that "daughter of Richard John Williams" is not accurate, and that Richard is the given name of her stepfather, not her father.

If you were to get the certificate of the birth I noted twice earlier:

Births Jun 1886
WILLIAMS Celia Kate Gravesend 2a 502

you would be able to determine this.

Astra posted this 1981 census record at the very outset; it matches the parents' names you gave:

Walter Sabine
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Jessie M
Where born: Camberwell, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Streatham
Town: Streatham
County/Island: London
Registration district: Wandsworth

William Sabine 33
Jessie M Sabine 31
Henrietta J Sabine 10
William Sabine 7
May Sabine 4
Walter Sabine 3
Margaret Sabine 4/12


What is it that you are no nearer to finding out about Walter Sabine?


Two of us have suggested that this could be Walter's birth:

Births Jun 1887
Sabine Walter Charles Camberwell 1d 849

Would it not make sense to obtain that certificate to see whether the parents' names match your information and the 1891 census?


This birth matches sister May in the 1891 census:

Births Sep 1886
Sabine May Camberwell 1d 774


It kind of feels like you have asked for assistance but are not paying any attention to what is offered, let alone appreciating it.