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I would be really like some help in hunting for a marriage as follows:

Arthur Denbigh Williams - born approx. 1872 in Brixton or Brentford
Louisa Clark - born approx. 1871 in Brenford

First child I can trace via 1901 census was called Arthur and born in c. 1894.

I do have Arthur Denbigh Williams 2nd marriage details to Minnie Louise French in 1908. His 1st wife Louisa Clark died in 1905 in Brentford. His 2nd marriage was recorded under Arthur DeMbigh Williams - I have the original cert and it could be a misspelling as his Army Service Corp records are definitely spelling DeNbigh with an N.

His father's name was also Arthur Denbigh Williams - I have no idea when/where his father was born. I just have this info from his 2nd wife's marriage cert in 1908 when his father was deceased.

Thanks for any info.

Duplicate post - Rebecca rather than posting your request again, nudge up the original so that searchers can see what has already been found and not waste their time duplicating effort.

As I asked on your other thread, please can you give the details of the 1901 census as I cannot find your family on it.

Rebecca,

Is this the correct death record for Louisa Williams?

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1983
about Louisa Williams
Name: Louisa Williams
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Year of Registration: 1905
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 34
District: Brentford
County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 59

Dear Potty, Thanks for the tip to nudge up - I will try to find the instructions for this. I missed your entry on the search request this morning.

Here is the 1901 census info - wrongly spelled surname!

1901 England Census
Name: Arthur William
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa
Gender: Male
Where born: Brentford, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Old Brentford
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Brentford
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 76 Distillery Road, Brentford

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Brentford
Sub registration district: Brentford
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 268
Household Members: Name Age
Arthur William 28
Arthur William 7
Charles William 2
George William 5
Louisa William 31
Mabel William 3

Many thanks for any help you are able to give.

Yes Joan - correct death registration. I have the a copy of her death cert - died 13 Apr 1905 at 344 High Street, Brentford.

Rebecca,

Is this the record on the 1901 Census you referring to? The father's name is Charles and mother is Ellen.

1901 England Census
about Arthur Williams
Name: Arthur Williams
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1894
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Charles
Mother's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Brentford, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Brentford
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Brentford
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Brentford
Sub registration district: Brentford
ED, institution, or vessel: 35
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 319
Household Members: Name Age
Arthur Williams 7
Charles Williams 32
Ellen Williams 32
Frederick Williams 2
Harry L Williams 4
Thomas Williams 6

No this is not the correct 1901 census. The correct one is as follows - hope it helps. This is definitely correct as my grandfather is the child Charles born 1898 and his birth cert verifies the mother and father. Thanks for your help.

1901 England Census
Name: Arthur William
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Louisa
Gender: Male
Where born: Brentford, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Old Brentford
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: Brentford
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 76 Distillery Road, Brentford

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Brentford
Sub registration district: Brentford
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 268
Household Members: Name Age
Arthur William 28
Arthur William 7
Charles William 2
George William 5
Louisa William 31
Mabel William 3

Potty - I have just read your previoius note on the other thread and can give you the following info from his army records that I have:

Short Service Attestation question 7 - have you ever served at any branch of His Majesty's forces, naval or military, if so which? Answer = NO.

Trade = General Labourer.

Date of registration: Hammersmith R.O - 12 Jun 1915

His number: T4/110546

If I am correct, I may have traced his eldest son via a military record and it appears that his son Arthur died on 14 Feb 1915. He was a Private in the Northumberland Fusiliers 2nd Battalion (a/c to info on internet this was REGULAR army) - number 3183. He is buried at St. Omer. I have requested his army death cert yesterday to see if it gives me info that could verify he really is Arthur c. 1872 son, His name is also Arthur Denbigh Williams by the way.

Maybe his death (if he is the son) prompted his father to sign up????

Hope this info helps some more.

Rebecca,

I can't find the marriage between Arthur and Louisa--is it possible that she may have been married before?

Joan

Joan - I have no idea if Louisa was married before. She was 34 at age of death and the eldest child on the 1901 census was born c. 1894 and was called Arthur, so I'm assuming this was her first child together with my great grandfather Arthur Denbigh. If she was born 1871, she was 23 when Arthur was born. My assumption (never to be relied upon of course) is that she was not previously married. But you never know she could have married at 18 (was that the legal age back then) and been divorced or lost her first husband all before the age of 23....
Hope this helps.

Hi Rebecca

Still looking but nothing definite yet.

Hi Potty,

Thanks a million. Don't forget to break for dinner ;>)) I'll keep watching this spot for any news. Enjoy your weekend. Rebecca

Hi Rebecca

This has really got me stumped. I cannot find a birth for either Arthur (b1872) or Louisa Clark, nor a marriage. Struggling too with the children's births.

I could understand one or two being left off the register (it was not compulsory until 1875 and even then some births were not registered, including my mother's in 1905!) but so many missing is odd. I wonder if there has been a name change somewhere.

I don't think the death cert will help much, except to confirm the name - English death certs for then only give name, age at death, cause of death and name of informant. Did you find him on the Commonwealth War Graves site?

I am still wondering about Arthur senior's joining up so early in the war (for his age).

Where did you get his service record from? I can't see it on Ancestry.

Have you anything pre 1901?
I wonder if he changed his name from Daniell to Williams
births right dates and areas
Arthur Denbigh Daniell 1873 Jul-Aug-Sep Pancras (1837-1901) London, Middlesex

Arthur Denbigh Daniell 1893 Oct-Nov-Dec Brentford Middlesex

George Edward Daniell 1896 Jan-Feb-Mar Brentford Middlesex

Mabel Florence Daniell 1897 Oct-Nov-Dec Brentford Middlesex

Hi Potty,

It's a tough one I know. I've tried everything I can think of (but I'm still a novice).

His Army papers came directly from Kew - my father kindly went together with my brother. I have not been able to find any of his army papers back via online searches on Ancestry or Findmypast. My father + brothers visit to Kew was a one off as it's my hobby not theirs so to speak. I live in Holland which would make it rather expensive to go in person to Kew, so I am working solely online. Anyway, they were able to find army documents (some are not very clear due to the copying) with the following titles:

1. Protection Certificate and Certificate of Identity:

Regtl. No. T4/110546. Record Office reads Woolwich and looks like it has a Dispersed Unit Stamp dated 9 Feb 1919 Wimbledon and that he was granted a 28 day furlough from the date stamped after which date uniform will not be worn accept upon occasions authorised by Army Orders. His address is stated as 32 Cambridge Road, Kew, Surrey. Theatre of War: Italy. Medical Category A. Place of rejoining in case of emergency: Illegible.

2. Short Service (for the duration of the War) Attestation Of:

No. T4/110546 Army Service Corps.
Maybe important - question 10: Did you receive a notice and do you understand its meanting and who gave it to you? Answer: YES - Name - C. Stanley Christimas - Corps - RStaff.

3. Descriptive Reort on Enlistment

Apparent age: 42
Address: 32 Cambridge Cottages
It lists his wife as Minnie Louise (French) 15.2.08 Parish Church Kew.
It also lists 6 children:
Louisa Henrietta - 27 Nov 1903 (from his 1st wife I assume)
Albert - 17 Dec 08
Percy - 5 Mar 10
Elsie - 10 Jun 11
Adelaide - 17 May 13
Archibald - 29 Aug 14
All children are listed as born in Richmond.
States he joined at ALDERSHOT on 14 Jun 15
Received: British War Medal + Victory Medal

3. Medical History

Birth Parish: Brixton County: Surrey - this is not the same as the 1901 Census which states Brentford.
Trade: Labourer
Rgmtl No. T4/110546

4. Copy of Entry of Death

For his son - Archibald Leonard Williams on 19.4.17 - it mentions father's occupation as Lance Corporal A.S.C. (...ffold at Kew Gardens). Informant: Mother present at death (pneumonia).

5. Casualty Form - Active Service

Regiment: Army Service Corps Loaders
Rgmt No. T4/110546
Enlisted: 12.6.15
Terms of service: General
Embarked s.s. "Queen Alexandra" Southampton 25.6.15
Disembarked Havre 28.6.15
Posted to B.H.T.D Havre

What my father can remember about his grandfather:

He was alive after the war.
Had a builders business at 32 Cambridge Cottages, Kew called A. Williams & Son.
My father can verify the existence of the children Albert, Percy & Adelaide from the 2nd marriage.
My grandfather is Charles Richard Williams - 27.11.98 from his 1st marriage - my own father thought that his father did not have any other siblings from the 1st marriage, but census 1901 seems to make that null and void.

I hope this helps you further. I am very greatful for your persistance. It's such a shame to hit a brick wall so soon in the line and indeed I agree very strange that BMD info does not show up.

I am 100% sure that the army papers are his - age/name/wife/children/address definitely correspond with my fathers actual knowledge.

Many thanks.
Rebecca

Potty - I forgot to mention that my father does not remember when/how Arthur Denbigh Williams died. Not even an estimate. My father was born in 1932.
Rebecca

Hi Jim, In the thread above you will be able to read the birth dates of various children. The summary reads:
Children with 1st wife (Louisa Clark) from 1901 Census:
Arthur - age 7 - born Brentford
George - age 5 - born Brenford
Charles Richard - my grandfather - age 2 (actual DOB = 27.11.1898 - confirmed by birth cert) - born Brentford
Mabel - age 3 - born Brentford

Army records show the following row of children:
Louisa Henrietta - 27.11.1903 (from 1st wife - confirmed via birth cert).

Believe to be with 2nd wife - Minnie Louise French
Albert Sidney - 17.12.1908 - born Richmond (confirmed via birth cert)
Percy - 5.3.10 - born Richmond
Elsie - 10.6.11 - born Richmond
Adelaide - 17.5.13 - born Richmond
Archibald Leonard - 29.8.14 - born Richmond (died 19.4.17)

I have his marriage cert to Minnie Louise French:
15.2.1908 - Parish Church Kew
His age: 35 - widower - labourer
Her age: 24 - spinster - no profession
Address for both: 32 Cambridge Cottages, Kew
His fathers name: Arthur Denbigh Williams (deceased) - profession: house agent
Her fathers name: Ebenezer French (deceased) - profession: tailor
In the presence of: John Orimes + Ehel Maud Pope.(neither of these "witnesses' ring any bells for me).

Hope this helps further.

Many thanks,
Rebecca

Jim - can confirm that I have the birth certs for the following 2 children (sorry should have checked my paper files before I wrote the last message):

Louisa Henrietta
27 Nov 1903 - 344 High Street, Brentford
Father: Arthur Williams
Mother: Louisa Williams formerly Clark
Occupation father: Furniture dealer
Informant: A. Williams father 344 High Street, Brentford
When registered: 6 Jan 1904

Albert Sidney
17 Dec 1908 - 32 Cambridge Cottages, Kew
Father: Arthur Denbigh Williams
Mother: Minnie Louise Williams formerly French
Occupation father: General Labourer
Informant: Minnie Louise Williams - mother - 32 Cambridge Cottages, Kew
When registered: 28 Jan 1909

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Rebecca

I think Jim is right about the name change. The only Mable Daniell born about the right year on the 1901 census is Mabel N born 1897 Kensington and there is birth reference for her. There is no death for a Mabel Daniell between 1897 and 1901.

I am also still wondering about him joining the Army at the age of 42 unless he was a reservist (ie ex Army). This website gives details of recruitment for WW1 www.1914-1918.net/index.htm and it seems clear that a man of his age would not have been called up in that year and yet his service record shows that he received a notice, ie was called up.

I think it might be a good idea to get the cert for one of the children Jim has found and see if any of the other details tie up. Mabel's might be best as she is the youngest and the family might be at the same address as when the next child was born.