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You could take a look at all the Marias born in Woolwich in 1869-1870 and try and account for them. You could also try cross referencing those births with births for Charles and see if there are any common surnames.

Rose

Thanks for looking for me.
I think I have probably exhausted this one. Unless something shows up in the 1911 census. In an ideal world she would have her mother sleeping over on census night...lol

morning LL
the only William & Elizabeth Hills I can find in the 1871 in the Woolwich area are much older with families. don't seem to fit with what you are after.

I haven't come across this situation before and I really don't know where you go from here

But I do wish you all the best with it

Christine

I just found a marriage of an Elizabeth Ann Butler to a William HIlls Dec 1870 so that would be after the children were born with the surname Butler and then they would say fathers name William!!!!! But the marriage is at Woolwich.
So could you look to see if in 1871 Charles and Maria are with William and Elizabeth Hills with the surname Hills,
Thank you
Gloria
(this is my last shot)
LOL

Thanks Christine.
This is the only one I have really been stuck on. Thought of every combination including that her fathers name may just be imagined to cover up her illegitimacy.
I did do a few searches for Charles after he left the school but to many Charles Butler to be sure none of which says born Woolwich. Very diffficult as you only get half an hour at the library.
Tried searching for a possible death for their mother or if they were born with a different surname and then the mother married.
Very disappointed that the registers at the school didnt show anything
I even contacted the Butler society but they couldnt help.

I've found them in 1861, children all transcribed wrong, but there is no William Butler. Someone has actually corrected the children's names as they have been researching this family.

I've been thinking about her giving the name William as father and it's possible she didn't really know her father's name as she was put into the home at such a young age.

Have you found Charles in later years and his marriage?

1861 England Census
about Eliza Butler
Name: Eliza Butler
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John
Gender: Female
Where born: Shadwell, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: St George in The East
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: St George In The East
Sub registration district: St Paul
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 215
Household Members: Name Age
Agness Amelia 8
Alfred Amelia 4
Emma Amelia 1
Eliza Butler 40
John Butler 40
Hanh Julian 12
John Julian 13
Reuben Julian 18

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 280; Folio: 67; Page: 37

Christine

could you find the one that Christine found but in 1861 as then it may give the sons name that made ELizabeth a widow.

both of them were admitted together. They were discharged at different dates probably because he was older.

You said they entered the school 25 jan 1878. Is that for
both of them or just Maria? I'm just concerned they're not siblings.

Rose

Thats an interesting one.

Charles and Maria are both in the school on 1881 and it says they are each other nearest living relation on the registers. They are the only 2 Butlers at the school so presumably they are siblings.

Have you checked this one out, her mother is Elizabeth,daughter in law, a widow, but no Charles with them.

1871 England Census
about Maria Butler
Name: Maria Butler
Age: 4 months
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Granddaughter
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Female
Where born: St George in The East, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: St George in The East
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: St George In The East
Sub registration district: St Paul
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 70
Household Members: Name Age
Elizabeth Butler 20
Emma Butler 11
Maria Butler 4 months
Agnes Butter 17
Alfred Butter 13
Eliza Butter 47
Hannah Butter 21
John Butter 50
John Butter 25
Reuben Butter 19

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 538; Folio: 62; Page: 13;

Do you know that Charles and Maria were definitely brother and sister?

Christine

think I'm going to take a break!

I'll check in later to see if anyone else has managed to come up with alternatives

Good luck - Christine

I dont actually have a mothers name yet as I cant find any baptism or birth.
I was trying to work out if there could have been a death for their father and mother remarried to a william Butler. Which is where I came up with the theory of Ellen married previously to Arthur Chappell.
If you see what I mean. I think I have treid all angles on this one and got nowhere.

I've looked at the original image -
think this is the same family - been entered twice!!

Christine

that one is ruled out because thats the same one that has Maria as Mrs Shurety.

Name: Charles Butler
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Martha
Gender: Male
Where born: Hampstead, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Hampstead St John
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Hampstead
Sub registration district: Hampstead
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 294
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Butler 4
Eliza Butler 10
George Butler 8
John Butler 12
Maria Butler 1
Martha Butler 45
William Butler 45

here's another in 1871 - father William, sister Maria

weird that the kids have the same names! Just the mother's name is different!

Christine

nothing on marriage certificate to say he is deceased but his occupation is just labourer.

I was thinking that maybe their mother died and thats why they were put into the school. They were admitted 25 jan 1878

Name: Charles Butler
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Maria
Gender: Male
Where born: Hampstead, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Hampstead
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: Golden Yard
Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Hampstead
Sub registration district: Hampstead
ED, institution, or vessel: 4 (Ward I)
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Butler 14
Eliza Butler 20
George Butler 17
John Butler 22
Maria Butler 12
Maria Butler 52
Mary A. Butler Younger Than 1
William Butler 53

OK - so this you have ruled out because the birthplace is not what you think it should be??

Christine

I think that is the one where later the daughter Maria is then Maria Shurety. I think the mother is from lands end

on Maria's marriage cert - does it give William Butler's occupation? And does it say deceased?

Christine