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Not really. Based on the handwriting I've seen on some censuses, if these guys wrote the address of the PRO on their parcel of census books, I'm surprised more of them didn't go missing.

Thankyou MGNV,

I shall have a look, do you know why the 1841 cencus is missing??

Kirsty
x

We know Elizabeth is d/o Joseph Beddington + Mary Wright.
It seems reasonable to assume Joseph is s/o John + Margaret (see 1851).

So how come Jane's listing Eliz as her g-daur. The natural assumption is Mary is Jane's daur, but then how come she's a Wright. There must be another marriage somewhere - perhaps even Joseph is her son-in-law via a deceased daur. Or perhaps Mary Groom is the widow of Mr Wright. Judging by their 1851 ages, Mary would have been 15/16 on 1/7/1837, and Joseph 14/15. I think Mary might have been a couple of years older, but evenso, I'ld expect their marrs to be in the civil registers, and I don't see them there. The obvious alternative is that Mary is the daur or stepdaur of Jane.

I think one would want to see the marr entries for Jane + Thomas, and Mary + Joseph, to see if any are described as widows, rather than batchelor/spinster.

I did find some female baptisms in 1820-1858 for daurs of Thomas Groom + Jane. Since there's no MS given, we don't know it's the later Jane Groom. However, there's no mention of Mary, but she might have lowered her 1851 age since she was older than her hubby.


Results for: Cheshire, England, British Isles
Father: Thomas Groom, Mother: Jane
Exact Spelling: Off
Batch Number: c866034

International Genealogical Index / British Isles - 3
Select records to download - (50 maximum)
1. Elizabeth - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 03 SEP 1820 Malpas, Cheshire, England

2. Emma - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 15 JUN 1822 Malpas, Cheshire, England

3. Jane - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 18 NOV 1826 Malpas, Cheshire, England

[All extracts of Chesire BTs - only females seem to be extracted for Malpas - records dated as 1820-1858]


Since the 1841 census for the township of Malpas is missing, the only hope is church records.
The LDS have films of these, and they are also lodged at Chester Records Office and the NA. There are also some published transcripts - check the LDS FH Library Catalogue for more details.

Re Davies+Bebbington marr:
Kirsty says "Witnesses were Henry Groom Margaret Alinou?"
I think that's a misreading of Alman, which seems a common name in Malpas. Possibly this is Margt:

1871 England Census
Civil Parish: Malpas
Town: Malpas
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address: Old Hall Street
Registration district: Whitchurch
Sub registration district: Malpas
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 4

Charles Hughes 42 Malpas, Cheshire, England Head M Pump Maker
Sarah Hughes 58 Edge Green, Cheshire, England Wife M Pump Makers Wife
Margaret Alman 24 Malpas, Cheshire, England Daughter W Housekeeper
Edward Alman 3 Malpas, Cheshire, England Grandson Scholar
William Alman 83 Malpas, Cheshire, England Father-in-law W Tailor

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 2798; Folio: 21; Page: 31; GSU roll: 838847.

Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1861 to 1865 [1866q4]
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ALMAN Edward HUGHES Margaret Malpas, St Oswald Cheshire West CE36/2/478
Cheshire Death indexes for the years: 1868 [1868q1 Alman in GRO index]
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
ALLMAN Edward 32 Malpas Cheshire West MAL/3/9

My guess is she's a friend rather than a rellie.


Kirsty also says "on the marriage cert there is also the name
William Andrew Cartwright ~ and underneath Registra but this is in with the witness details?? Joseph Sutton is the Minister."

Until 1898, only CofE ministers (& quakers, rabbis) were authorized to oversee the signing of the register. If you were a christian of some other flavour, your minister could conduct the religious ceremony, but the civil ceremony (which concludes with the signing of the register) has to be done by the registrar. I think this might still be the case for RC marriages, but after 1898, non-conformists were authorized to maintain official registers.

KIRSTY,NO PROBS,TOM.

Thomas, I did think it was probably the same John that Elizabeth married, but was being a bit careful!!!

Kirsty

JOHN DAVIES WAS BORN IN RHOSDDU,WREXHAM ,DENBIGHSHIRE(ENUMERATORS/TRANSCRIBERS WERE HAVING A FIELD DAY!!)

MGNV,
Yes I think so but I can't find the Groom connection

Kirsty

Presumably witness Henry Groom is Jane's son:

1851 England Census
Civil Parish: Malpas
Town: Malpas
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address: Well Street
Registration district: Wrexham
Sub registration district: Hope
ED, institution, or vessel: 5a
Household schedule number: 79

Thomas Groom 60 Malpas, Cheshire, England Head M Shoemaker
Jane Groom 60 Braddon [i.e., Bratton] Wellington, Shropshire, England Wife M
Thomas Groom 26 Malpas, Cheshire, England Son U Shoemaker Journeyman
Emma Groom 28 Malpas, Cheshire, England Daughter U Dressmaker
Ephraim Groom 22 Malpas, Cheshire, England Son U Shoemaker Journeyman
William Groom 19 Malpas, Cheshire, England Son U Shoemaker App
Henry Groom 16 Malpas, Cheshire, England Son U Servant
Daniel Fowles 30 Malpas, Cheshire, England Lodger U ???
Thomas Cartwright 32 Oldcastle, Cheshire, England Lodger U Farm Servt
Thomas Clutton 10 Malpas, Cheshire, England Lodger Scholar

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2502; Folio: 356; Page: 19; GSU roll: 104268-104269.

1861 England Census
Civil Parish: Malpas
Town: Malpas
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street address: Windmill St
Registration district: Whitchurch
Sub registration district: Malpas
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 80

Henry Groom 29 Malpas, Cheshire, England Head M Bricklayer
Ann Groom 24 Bradby, Cheshire, England Wife M
Emily Groom 1 Malpas, Cheshire, England Daughter Bricklayers Daur

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 1891; Folio: 11; Page: 15; GSU roll: 542883.

K,

I am still trying to find the connection to Jane Groom ~ Elizabeth's grandmother????

Anyway

I will search a bit more!!!

Thankyou

Kirsty
x

Delighted you had success. I wonder what happened to Joseph. I think his parents died post 1851 but couldn't see an obvious death for him

Good Luck Kay

I have just got the birth certificate

And

Elizabeth Bebbington born 21st March 1852
Hatton

Father
Joseph Bebbington ~ Farmer

Mother
Mary Bebbington ~ formally Wright

So K you were right and thankyou

XXX

K,
Sorry been wrapping Vhristmas prezzies while the kids are asleep!!

I did finr that 1 but folowing that family through the cencus they had an Ellen Davies living with them and she was a niece.

Which brings me back to where I started Elizabeth Bebington married John Davies.

Yes I have just discovered Cheshire bmd and that is where I have ordered the birth cert from.

For some reason I can't get my head round this family they seen to be the Dingles of the 1800's!!!

Kirsty
X

A possiblity but why would they give her the surname of Bebington. Just realised that Elizabeth is listed in 1861 as born in Hatton, possibly tieing into the Joseph I found in 1851. I wonder why Thomas and Elizabeth were living seperately in 1861 with two houses.

By the way do you use the Cheshire bmd site to search for birth etc in Cheshire - www.cheshirebmd.org.uk

They are excellant and the birth for Elizabeth Bebington in 1852 is listed there as registered in Tettenhall!!

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1852
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BEBBINGTON Elizabeth Tattenhall Cheshire West TAT/5/23


It also lists the following of Joseph to Mary

Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1851
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BEBINGTON Joseph WRIGHT Mary Malpas, St Oswald Cheshire West CE36/1/482

I also thought that, Another thought I had was Emma & Thomas (siblings) living together up to 1881 ish ~ do you think, I will refrase that! there IS a BIG family cover up!!

X

Just a thought but I wonder if Ralph was double counted in 1861 and this is also him - He is also listed as a blacksmith

1861

Name: Ralph Bebbington
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Ralph
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Oldcastle, Cheshire, England

Civil Parish: Oldcastle
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Whitchurch
Sub registration district: Malpas
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 13
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Bebbington 67
Edwin Bebbington 19
Emma Bebbington 4
Jane Bebbington 39
Philip Bebbington 10
Ralph Bebbington 76
Ralph Bebbington 30
Richard Bebbington 37

I think the census you refer to is the 1861 census where a Ralph Bebington in living as a visitor with Thomas Groom husband of Jane and two of their children. I didn't see any reference to Joseph but there has to a connection to Elizabeth somewhere!!

Kx

Sorry we crossed - Good luck with birth cert

K sorry me getting confused I ment to say follow Thomas to 1861

Name: Thomas Groom
Age: 70
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1791
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Malpas, Cheshire, England

Civil Parish: Malpas
Town: Malpas
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Registration district: Whitchurch
Sub registration district: Malpas
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 144
Household Members: Name Age
Ralph Bebbington 28
Emma Groom 38
Thomas Groom 70
Thomas Groom 36

~ Sorry I was finding so much information last night and was going round in circles!! I have just sent for Elizabeth's birth certificate ~ fingers crossed

I am still no closer!!

Kirsty
X

Kirsty

I agree that it's confusing and you have lost me at the moment. I agree re Thomas and Jane Groom, but who then is the other Jane you refer to? I have checked the 1871 census for Well St in Malpas and can't see either Joseph or Ralph Bebington. Have I got the wrong year? Sorry to be thick - I think old age is setting in!!

Kx

K,

in 1851 cencus Thomas is Jane's husband???