Find Ancestors

Yes Evie, I tried all sorts of combinations of spellings for 1891 but came up with nothing. Maybe when I'm not so tired I'll try trawling the whole census, hopefully sometime over the w/e!!
I use ancestry too but findmypast was recommended to me, I registered but not really looked - maybe I should?!?!?
Good night everyone

Having no luck finding the household in 1891 (just to see whether there are any clues -- John James cleverly died the quarter before the census).

No luck. I have a suspicion.

1891 is the year when one of Ancestry's abject stupidities is particularly endemic. If there is a woman identified as "wife" at the top of a household, with her children following, Ancestry's system or transcribers assigns that woman to the nearest preceding male head of household. She and her children are given that man's surname -- despite the clearly recorded surname of their own, the double lines between the households (sometimes the households aren't even adjacent), the different addresses and the different household schedule numbers ... and the fact that the man in question already has a wife. Or two, if the woman is the second "wife" down in the list after him; yes, I've seen that.

If Mary were recently widowed, it's conceivable that she would have described herself (or someone else would) as "wife". And the result could be that she and the kids are hidden away under another surname in an unrelated household.

So the kids would have to be searched for by given names and birth details ...

Thanks for the 'encouragement' Sylvia LOL
I think I would have given up ages ago without the help of you lot.
It's very much appreciated.

No Pen


your ancestor is trying to confuse you!!


don't get hung up on birthplaces, birthyears, or spellings!!


Most of our ancestors were illiterate


Many answered the enumerator's question of "where do you come from?" literally .... ie, they said they came from Northampton because that was where they last lived. Whereas the enumerator meant "where were you born?".

Many of them didn't KNOW where they were born, especially if the parents had moved soon after the child was born. For all they knew, they came from Northampton because that is where they grew up.

In many cases, someone else gave the information ....... and may not have known but guessed.



Above all ............. remember that genealogy is an inexact science. In many cases, we have to take a leap of faith because the absolute definitive proof just cannot be found because it does not exist.



sylvia

Thanks Evie, I'm sure you're right. it's just that in 1881 census (earlier in thread) he was born in Marylebone. I'm confused! Maybe I'm trying to see something that isn't there.

So where have you been all our lives, Andy?

Pam - I do think it says Northamptonshire. Compare the N to the N in Norfolk farther down the page, and the various Ms. I think Northamptonshire is the only way to read it. Whether it was true ... another matter. ;) But it would seem likely that if someone were going to report a birthplace other than where he was living, he'd name the right one. If he knew it ...

Thanks Andy, nice work.
It does seem that this is the one though I'm not convinced it actually says Northamptonshire!

Just found this

1871

John J Marles (Smailes on image)
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Northamptonshire, England
Civil Parish: Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St James Pentonville
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Holborn
Sub registration district: Pentonville
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 419
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary A Hoy 55
Mary A Hoy 18
George Hoy 19
Charles Hoy 14
John J Marles 33 Cooper

Andy

Well it's been 6 weeks and I've found loads of stuff about other members of my family but still nothing on John James Smailes - I'm not giving up yet though - or on William, though I have a sneaky suspicion that William may have been born in the north somewhere I have no proof. I also think that John's birth may not have been recorded.
Does anyone know if it would help if I went to London and searched some records, somewhere, anywhere????

Thanks Evie
I've looked at the records and it's driving me batty.
Think I'm gonna have to take a break and follow another line for a while.
Thank you all for your help and I will keep looking on here, just in case.

The "Hoyn" in that list looked like "Hoyse" to me.

I searched for Hoy* births in that period, and this is the only relevant one.

Births Sep 1849
CROSS Hoyse Edward Thirman St Martin 1 127

Smail(s) could have been a subsequent or previous married surname of mother Mary ...

I'm not finding the household in 1851.

There is also this household in 1861 in Marylebone, and one wonders whether he was an older child of this mother who had flown the nest by then, being about 20. The surname might read "Smails"; in fact, I would say it does.

Margaret Shonnacy 19
Eliza Smail 7
Hoyn Smail 12 (? Can't read any better)
Mary Smail 39 - widowed, Charwoman
Mary Smail 18
William Smail 9

I do wonder about this fellow in 1871.

The use of a middle initial in census records is commonly an indication that the person went by a middle name.

The occupation is Commercial Traveller -- I can't read the rest, but it's "[something] Grain; Seed Grain? -- which likely makes him unlikely, but otherwise he fits the bill.


Name: James Smaills
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England
Civil Parish: Sculcoates
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Yorkshire

Sigh, it was good while it lasted.
I spent 3 hours last night looking for John James Smailes born in London - searched 1839 to 1844 birth records and came up with nothing. Maybe he isn't registered.
I've also been looking for 1871 and 1861 census records, without success - tried 6 or 7 different spellings.

Any ideas???

Thanks Andy - brilliant detective work.
Can't express how pleased I am.

1881 name wrong on census

John J. Mailes
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary A.
Gender: Male
Where born: Marylebone, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Battersea
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 57 Rollo Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Cooper

Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub registration district: Battersea
ED, institution, or vessel: 53a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Albert J. Mailes 1m b Battersea
Emma M. Mailes 4 b Camberwell
John J. Mailes 40
Mary A. Mailes 34 b Holborn

Andy

I think Smale is a Cornwall/Devon name, while Smailes seems to be Durham /Northumberland-ish. I think they're two separate names, not that that would prevent Ancestry from muddling them.

But if yours were Smailes-s, I don't think looking at Smale-s in Cornwall/Devon is too likely. Somewhere else maybe, but there, they are likely to be real Smale-s.

M A Smailes registered the death, was present at death and is named as the widow. The 1901 Census record shows her with the children.
I am in the process of trawling through the birth records - found a John James Taylor Smale 1842 in Exeter, think I'm just gonna have to be patient.

That Hellen is called Ellen in another submitted record. This looks like that batch in 1841:


Name: Ellen Smales
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Head
Where born: Thorp Hesley, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Kimberworth
County/Island: Yorkshire
Registration district: Rotherham

Sarah Cunningham 31
Thomas Cunningham 48
Ann Smales 1
Ellen Smales 32
James Smales 6
> John Smales 9
Mary Smales 12
Matthew Smales 4

Spellings varied ...

Submitted (unverified) record in IGI:


John SMALES
Birth: About 1842 Kimberworth, Yorkshire, England

Parents:
Father: William SMALES
Mother: Mrs. Hellen Smales