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Sorry Sylvia - all I have found so far is Wlifred's baptism

25-6-1871 at St Thomas Eccleston Wilfred Taylor Houghton s of John Taylor and Elizabeth Houghton of Windle Clerk.

Do you know when John's father James died or where John was buried.

Thank you, Tracey,and NewYearsEvie,
In the 1800s, having TB was bad enough, never mind having syphilis
as well, How unlucky can you be.
So i think i can take it that Elizabeth died around the same time as john.
I dont suppose their is anything els i can do?
My very best regards
sylvia

Phthisis, tuberculosis, was endemic. My gr-grfather's older brother, first wife, first daughter and niece - that I know of (the only certs I've got around to getting), died of it. In his later life he referred to it as the plague that wiped out his first family. I hadn't heard that until after I got those certs, which went a long way to confirming that I had identified the right family. I imagine that his sister died young of it, although I haven't found her death, but since her daughter did - and these were wealthy people by then, although my gr-grfather's own family likely wasn't - I would guess that.

Very likely if one family member had it, others did.

Now, peri syphilitis -- syphillitic peritonitis, I would imagine.

http://www.icd9cm.net/default.asp?room=Di&typex=T&code=095.2&show=2dec

I would think it quite likely that both spouses would have had at least one of the infections in common -- although who gave it to whom, remember, one can't know!

Someone here gave a useful explanation of the common effects of TB a while back. One point is that pregnancy alleviates the symptoms, which return after the pregnancy. In the case of my gr-grfather's first wife, she died within weeks of the birth of their child. This might well have happened to your Elizabeth.

Well it appears it may not be as it seems...

Wikipedia has this....

"In the past, tuberculosis has been called consumption, because it seemed to consume people from within, with a bloody cough, fever, pallor, and long relentless wasting. Other names included phthisis (Greek for consumption)"

So consumption and some other horrid infection! does the cert mention widow of or husband of and mention her name?

If it does not mention her then it could suggest she had already left him and moved on?


Tracey

Thank you to you all, for putting in such a massive effort on my behalf.

Wayne/tracey Mentioned that to much emphasis is being out on the name taylor, as it is part of the christian name, I must agree, Taylor was Johns mothers maiden name.
That Elizabeth may have died Before John, has come to the fore.
So I went and got Johns death cert out, to see if this could through any light on the subject.
The certificate says,
John Taylor Houghton died aged 34 on the 25th March 1879 at his
mum & Dads house Croppers Hill Eccleston. with His dad present.
If Elizabeth was still alive surely he would have died at their house.
Now here's a thing, John died of -
Peri Syphilitis 9 months And Phthisis 3 months
Does that sound like an STD, if it is, he may have passed it to Elizabeth
and she died if it to.
Best regards Sylvia

One alternative is that Elizabeth remarried - here's the Precot marrs 1879-1893

St. Helens LAN 1894-1935
before 1894 see Parr; Sutton; Eccleston; Windle / transferred to St. Helens district on 1.7.1935


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1879
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HOUGHTON Elizabeth FLETCHER Robert Prescot Register Office or Registrar Attended Prescot R/30/23

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1880
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HOUGHTON Elizabeth PLATT James Prescot, St.Mary's Prescot C5/6/50

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1881
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
EDWARDS Elizabeth HOWARTH John Whiston, St.Nicholas Prescot C7/1/97
HOUGHTON Elizabeth HOWARTH John Whiston, St.Nicholas Prescot C7/1/97

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1882
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HOUGHTON Elizabeth GETHONG James Prescot Register Office or Registrar Attended Prescot R/34/42

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1886
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HOUGHTON Elizabeth HURST Thomas Prescot Register Office or Registrar Attended Prescot R/38/170

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1889
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HOUGHTON Elizabeth BERRY William Prescot, St.Mary's Prescot C5/6/392


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1882
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WOODS Elizabeth BILLINGE Jacob Prescot Register Office or Registrar Attended Prescot R/33/165

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1885
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WOODS Elizabeth LENNON James Prescot Register Office or Registrar Attended Prescot R/38/27
WOODS Elizabeth LOWE John Prescot Register Office or Registrar Attended Prescot R/39/48

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1888
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WOODS Elizabeth Ann BARKER William Prescot Register Office or Registrar Attended Prescot R/43/117

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1892
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
WOODS Elizabeth J PEMBERTON Hugh Kirkby, St. Chads Prescot C8/1/385

The grandparents' household in 1871:

James Houghton 51
Sarah Houghton 48
Annie Houghton 15
Edwin Houghton 12
Frederick W Houghton 8

1861:

James Hoghton 42
Sarah Hoghton 38
Emma Hoghton 13
Jane Hoghton 11
Annie Hoghton 7
Alfred James Hoghton 5
Edwin Hoghton 2


Births Jun 1877
MARTIN Thomas Alfred Prescott 8b 678

No Houghton-Martin marriage in Prescot, but could be an Annie Houghton + Alfred Martin in 1876 in Liverpool who could be the parents. Or he could be an unmarried daughter's child with his father's surname. Just curious.

Ah yes, that marriage is correct; 1891:

Name: Thomas A Martin
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: Annie

James Houghton 72
Aarah Houghton 49
Alfred Martin 37
Annie Houghton 36 (of course, it's ditto to *Martin* on the original)
Thomas A Martin 13
Annie Martin 3
Frank Martin 2/12


I'd just wondered whether there was a possibility that Elizabeth had had another child by a second marriage/relationship before 1881, but nope.

Whose kid is Thomas A Martin in the 1881 household, btw?


James Houghton 62
Sarah Houghton 59
Frederick W. Houghton 18
Wilfred T. Houghton 9
Thomas A. Martin 3 - grandson

Hey Ann

Long time no speak. No sadly i didn't find anything of any use. I do think with the paternal grandparents taking in the child either the mother was ill or infirm or dead.

It's not a common thing, the mother is usually left with the child and in most cases marries quite quickly.


Tracey x

If Elizabeth died first it is possible she was buried with her own parents. Were they buried at the same church as the Houghton family

I haven't been able to find anything useful on lancs opc - hope you have more success Tracey

The Lancs OPC might be a help here...i'll go and take a look...


T x

Re Taylor, of course I agree, Tracey. Alan took a long shot, and I traced that Elizabeth back to 1871, and then put the 1871 details for our Elizabeth (that you have reproduced again) to show that the two co-existed, so Elizabeth Taylor wasn't ours.

Elizabeth dying first is indeed a possibility. Ordering death certs and hoping there is some identifying info on them seems to be the only option (unless there's a cheaper way, at a local registry office or such).

Well, in 1901 there are 3 Elizabeth Houghtons in St Helen, birthdates abt 1841, 1841 and 1839.

All have husbands, i.e. Houghton is their husbands' surname. So none is yours. I don't see the youngest of the four really.

One distinct possibility is that your Elizabeth formed a household with a new spouse without actually marrying him. That was common, especially where one partner was already married but estranged from the spouse. She would have adopted her new partner's surname, and been known by that surname in the community and in censuses.

If that was the case, we would just never ever identify your Elizabeth.

In 1901 alone, there are several dozen Elizabeths born in the mid 1840s in St Helens. Your Elizabeth could be any one of them, if she was still living and had a new partner.

Sometimes, with fewer possibles, you can rule out most by finding marriages that aren't your person. With this number, never.

I think we're stumped.

You mentioned her birth certificate. There are two Elizabeth Woods births in 1844 that would show as born 1845 in censuses. I'd say all you can do is order both (since you know her father's name, you could tell which it was then).

One question. You do have Wilfred's birth cert, and it does name Elizabeth Woods as mother? I just wondered whether it was possible that she did die first, and John had a child with another woman before he died ... Oh, no, that's right, we have your Elizabeth in 1871.

Yup. Stumped.

I would suggest a little too much emphasis has been put on the middle name of Taylor... it's merely a name that has been passed down the line, their surname is Houghton.

This is them in 1871,

Name: Elizabeth Houghton
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John T
Gender: Female
Where born: St Helens, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Windle
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: St Helen
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Prescot
Sub registration district: St Helens

John T Houghton 26
Elizabeth Houghton 26


For the child to be left with the paternal Grandparents something must have happened to the mother. Do we know the circumstances upon which the father died? Could the mother have also died around a similar time?

It's also possible Elizabeth died first?

Deaths Dec 1875
Houghton Elizabeth 34 Prescott 8b 449


Tracey x

It's easier to search the FreeBMD indexes at Ancestry sometimes (and still free). You can specify the year of birth.

There are some Elizabeth Houghton deaths in Prescot district with dates of birth that at least vaguely resemble your Elizabeth's.


Elizabeth Houghton abt 1843 1903 Prescot Lancashire

Elizabeth Houghton abt 1847 1909 Prescot Lancashire

Elizabeth Houghton abt 1842 1917 Prescot Lancashire

Elizabeth Houghton abt 1841 1875 Prescot Lancashire


(The others in the results have birthdates before 1840.)

The last one there doesn't count because she died too early. The other three were all living in 1901. Let's look for them ...

And to the meat of it --

I actually spent rather an age looking for your Elizabeth in 1881 and 1891. Checking out any Elizabeth wtih birth details like yours, and actually crosschecking them against marriages of Elizabeth Houghtons between 1879 and and 1891 -- !!!

I got absolutely nowhere. Except to rule out that nice Elizabeth Taylor possible.

I'll take another look ...

Everybody may have got one of these, but just in case, PM from Sylvia:


New message to Evie, and every one who replyed, thank you,
I have Elizabeth and Johns marriage cert, Her dads name was James, and he is down as being a labourer, their is no profession for Elizabeth, and just Eccleston as an address.
I also have her on the 1871 census, the year their child was born as living at 87 Duke street Prescot,
she was b in St Helens, and John was born in southport, By the time the next census come round john had been dead two years, I have the St Helens cemetery plots were John and the Houghtons are intered but their is only one Elizabeth Houghton and she died in 1869, thats two years befor Elizabeths child was born so the 1869 death is not my G-Grandma Elizabeth Houghton nee Woods. Do you think i have enough info to send for her birth cert, plus is their any way I could source her death cert from the info i have


First thing first -- always reply in the thread! That way, everyone can see it ... and we who get PMs don't have to go searching for the thead it related to. (Yours was down at the bottom of page 2 of my "My Threads" list when I went looking -- that's how to find your thread easily every time, btw: on the left of the Trying to Find board, click on "My Threads".)

Click on the purple Reply button at the top of this thread. A box will open where you type your reply, and then click Submit. Who'd 'a thunk it ... since the system doesn't bother telling you ...

1871, your Elizabeth:


Name: Elizabeth Houghton
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John T
Where born: St Helens, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Windle
Town: St Helen
County/Island: Lancashire

This is the 1901 Elizabeth Taylor in 1881 in Eccleston in Prescot:

George Taylor 40
Elizth. Taylor 38
Mary Taylor 10 (married Dorning)
Joseph Taylor 9
Wm. Newell 55

and in 1871 in Eccleston:

George Taylor 30
Elizabeth Taylor 28
Sarah Taylor 4
Mary Taylor 5 months
Henery Eccles 26


Looks like not her ...

The marriage of the Dornings in the 1901 household:

Marriages Mar 1895
Atherton James Prescot 8b 809
Battersby Eliza Prescot 8b 809
>> Dorning Matthew Charles Prescot 8b 809
>> Taylor Mary Prescot 8b 809