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Certainly seems that way to me. Thanks for all your help on this. Just to add Robert Harris is father was called John.

Sharon

What's all this brouhaha??


If I'm following this, the upshot seems to be ...

"Applied for the birth certificate for JR Barratt. Father shown as John Barratt (deceased) Mother Jane Barratt formerly Starmer."

... I WAS RIGHT!!!


Am I right?

;)

After a long search I think I have cracked it.
John Robert (no birth for Starmer) looked at the two surnames Martin & Barratt and worked forward. Martin accounted for. Applied for the birth certificate for JR Barratt. Father shown as John Barratt (deceased) Mother Jane Barratt formerly Starmer. No marriage entry for Jane & John so assume this is not fact, he may or may not have been father but they never married. A John Barratt aged 30 death was registered in Blaby in the same quarter as birth but obviously no idea if he was father or not. As Robert is middle name I assume Robert Starmer was father, not a name in Jane's very extended family.
So to Robert. Looked at 3 possibilities (again) all accounted for on Census, marriage, death after 1881 (first time R Starmer appears) A tree that another member shared had Amy first born in Leeds married to her first cousin Arthur Starmer. Her name at marriage is shown as Amy Starmer (middle name) Harris. Marriage 1896. 1901 & 1911 Census Amy shown as born in Leeds. No record on Birth for Amy Harris Leeds or previous census of 1881 & 1891. Purchased certificate. Father shown for Amy as Robert Starmer Harris Tram Conducter which by coincidence (think not) is occupation of Robert Starmer in Leeds 1901. Robert Harris birth entry found. Census 51,61 with family. 71 with wife Elizabeth. She died 1873 same quarter as JR born. Robert Harris birth abt 1844-1848 not on any other census after 1871 and I can not find a death entry for him. So guess Jane was extra marital affair. No marriage entry for Robert Harris & Jane Starmer either. Sure I have cracked it but if it wasn't for the Amy Harris marriage doubt I ever would.

Hope this is helpful to others. The certificates in the end in my case are as reliable as the informant.

Evie I'd love you to dig around my family with your great enthusiasm lol

Nighty Night - Insomnia kicked in for me so I will explore some of possible links / theories. Thanks

Time for me to toddle.

We haven't explored the other standard theories yet:

- he was born not-Starmer to an unmarried woman or a woman on her first marriage who subsequently married / partnered with a Starmer, and he adopted the stepfather's surname

- he was born not-Starmer to an unmarried woman and registered under her surname, but knew who his father was and subsequently adopted his father's surname, Starmer

- he was born Starmer, one way or another, and his mother subsequently married / partnered with not-Starmer and he appears in the censuses under that surname until he leaves home, just daring you to find him

Yes the first Jane baptised in 1842 died in 1843. Was also two James one born / died in 1833 and James Bates born 1854 making his parents a staggering 64 unless he was son of William / Maria and not William Mary as shown on baptism records.

I am all excited know. Googled Isham as it meant nothing to me. Surname Litherland seems familiar. I think from memory that a Robert Starmer I looked at ages ago mother's maiden name was Litherland but have not recorded that as was still looking at Leicester area. Child bride - I'm intrigued.

Oh, you're welcome - thank you for having me! I had to stay up all night to finish a job I hadn't done and didn't finish til about noon, and expected to be back shoulder to the keyboard about four hours later, and it turned out the email cancelling that had gone to an account I didn't check ... so I'm just at a loose end until I finally go sleep for 12 hours. ;)

At least you're not saying "no, that can't be them, their name wasn't spelled like that" ........ as another poster remarked to me, that thread was getting too much like the last episode of Fawlty Towers ...! (You will understand this, or one of us will die!)

Sharon that explains why so many William/Maria, William/Mary children showed up on IGI when I tried to search. You had a very busy family!

Humpey Hosepool sounds like someone got fed up transcribing and just typed anything!

I found 2 Jane Starmers born is Cosby to the parents William and Maria, born 6 years apart.

Firstly thanks for all the time you have spent this evening on this. William and Mary are Jane's grandparents and Sarah would be her fathers sister (her aunt) Seems that William and Mary born about 1790 were still producing children when they own children were breeding - and they did a lot of that. In fact Maria nee Bates Jane's mum was one of twenty as fas as I can establish. A few child mortality but if you passed that generally you lived a ripe old age. My Great Grandma was 92 when she died in 1969 and I have vague memories of her (I was five) Of her children my own grandmother was 89 and most of the sibs survived in to their 80's and I was very much brought up with them and frequently visited them. Not sure if inbreeding went on with cousin's hence the same surname Starmer (if it was the same) but didn't affect a long life. One thing that is strange is that Robert & Jane moved around alot yet my great grandmother was at the address in 1969 that apears on 1911 census.

And another one of those either/ors:

JOHN STARMOR OR ISHAM
Christening: 07 MAY 1843 Cosby, Leicester, England
Father: JOSEPH ISHAM
Mother: MARY STURMOR
Batch No.: C049741

That one got the name:

Births Jun 1843
ISHAM John Blaby 15 61

I've wondered, given first son's name, whether Robert was really a John Robert / Robert John. Or father was John. Or something!

Joseph was born c1820, was in Cosby in 1841, and by 1871 had married a child bride and moved to Wolverhampton. Asking Ancestry for Isham is, I fear, asking for the moon.


Well, I may have succeeded in getting an early entry in the 2009 moronic Ancestry names pool. In 1841 -- read down, read way down:

James Jackson 39
Rebecca Jackson 36
Katherine Jackson 9
A G Jackson 7
A Gee Jackson 3
Rebecca Fary 57
Fras Isham 28
Anne Litherland 15
Emma Broliee 17
Humpey Hosepool 13


Right. When I don't sleep, most anything will set me off.

But really.

Well feel free to join in, Alison! It's tedious when four people are posting the same census, but when it's a mystery, piggybacking works very well! I should go bang on Dee's inbox. We solved a good one last week.

Yeh -- if it weren't for my weird gr-grfather, my family tree would bore me to tears. ;)

Here's an interesting thing. Before I go tracking off after them, do you know these people?


JACOB STARMER OR WARREN
Christening: 26 FEB 1843 Cosby, Leicester, England
Father: JOSEPH WARREN
Mother: SARAH STARMER
Batch No.: C049741

Also in a submitted record as Joseph Warren Starmer.


Births Mar 1843
Starmer Jacob Blaby 15 36 (mistranscribed something)


I wonder whether Sarah had other children? Like ... a Robert ...


Well, somebody in the household did, but no Robert -- in 1851:

Name: Jacob Starmer
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Grandson
Where born: Cosby, Leicestershire, England

Civil Parish: Cosby
County/Island: Leicestershire

William Starmer 60
Mary Starmer 59
Sarah Starmer 37
Rebecca Starmer 22
John Starmer 19
George Starmer 15
Jacob Starmer 8 - grson
Samuel Starmer 10 - grson (parents Edward and Mary Ann, per IGI)
Elizabeth Howkins 27

........................

Can I just say you two have got me absolutely fascinated, much more interesting than my family tree. Hope you solve the mystery

Alison

Was just about to go looking for that James in earlier censuses.

Have also had a bit of a poke at FreeREG, but there's nothing there of interest yet.

Oops! I keep wandering off in mid-post composition, and then coming back and making pronouncements like "her mother was Maria" or "here he is in 1881" when you've already been there and done that. ;)

Wiiliam and Frederick Starmer are the sheet music people that emigrated to America along with parents James & Ann, Edwin stayed in UK. Lots of info on them and sheet music on google etc. Havn't found a link with my Starmer's but interesting that James was born in Northmapton as possible birth entry for Robert Starmer 1844 is in same area. Will look at Census info for 51 /61 and see if James and Robert are in deed brothers and sack the leicester link. Not as intriguing as changed names though. Also note number of spelling variations of Starmer , Sturmer, Starman etc.

Jane in 1871 (her mother was Maria, btw):


Name: Jane Starman
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Servant
Where born: Cosby, Leicestershire, England
Civil Parish: All Saints
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: Leicester
County/Island: Leicestershire


complete list of kids from 1891 (except deceased Robert John):

Robert Starmer 47
Jane Starmer 44
Amy Starmer 15
Flossy Starmer 13
James Starmer 11
Ada Starmer 9
Arthur Starmer 6
Willie Starmer 4
Maria Starmer 1

All born in Leeds district except Maria.


Okay, Starm* events in Leeds, complete list to 1890 -- known yours are asterisked.


Marriages Jun 1866
STARMER James Leeds 9b 694

Births Jun 1867
Starmer Edwin James Leeds 9b 441

Births Mar 1872
STARMER William Austin Leeds 9b 441

Births Jun 1875
* Starmer Amy Leeds 9b 453

Births Sep 1877
* STARMER Florence Leeds 9b 508

Births Sep 1878
? Starmer Frederick Waite Leeds 9b 601

Births Sep 1879
* Starmer James Leeds 9b 456

Births Jun 1882
* Starmer Ada Leeds 9b 462

Births Jun 1884
* Starmer Arthur Leeds 9b 497

Births Sep 1886
* STARMER Willie Leeds 9b 458

Deaths Dec 1887
* Starmer John Robert 14 Leeds 9b 314


I imagine the Frederick was yours and died in early childhood.


Now, there's a rather sharp dividing line between the first set of events, which aren't yours, and the second set, which are yours.

Aha. Not quite so. Parents of Frederick:

Marriages Jun 1866
BOTTOMLEY Selina Leeds 9b 694
Raynar John Leeds 9b 694
> STARMER James Leeds 9b 694
> Waite Ann E Leeds 9b 694


Jane's household in Cosby in 1851:

William Sturman 40
Maria Sturman 39
Mary Sturman 19
> James Sturman 17
Elizabeth Sturman 15
Ann Sturman 11
Maria Sturman 6
Jane Sturman 3


Drat. Good scenario down the drain. The James Starmer who married in Leeds wasn't Jane's brother. In 1871:

Name: James Starmer
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Ann
Where born: Northants, Northamptonshire, England
Civil Parish: Leeds

James Starmer 26
Elizabeth Ann Starmer 32
Edwin James Starmer 3


And we can definitely rule out those earlier children as being Jane's / Robert's.


I do wonder about Robert actually being from Leicestershire rather than just having adopted that as a birthplace of convenience if he was there, say in 1871.