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Have been through the Dorothy Francis I can find. I know the 1891 and 1901 show different birth places but I think they maybe came under the same area at that time. The family were all in Worcester at the time.

Dorothy was certainly down south and worked in London throughout the war. Her address in 1918 was Askew Road, Shepherds Bush. George Savage was shown as Town Hall, Oxford but he was in the army at that time.

Nellie Bessie (or Bessie Nellie as she was sometimes shown) was born in Brentford before Dorothy met Savage presumably.

My husband is only aware of Dorothy being in London. She worked at the Buckingham Pub - somewhere around Petty France I think.

John Francis was 18 on the 1871 census as a plate layer as was his father, also John. Maybe it wasn't for him or he was unable to do the job for some reason. His name, age and location in 1871 made him a prime candidate. I don't think I could find any other John Francis at the time.

If I could find a marriage I could check this out.

birmingham warwickshire
worcestershire
miles apart
,lets start with looking for dorothy with father ,,commercial traveller..if he may be at home on census night.
luckily dorothy 1890 is not too common,but does get mistranscribed easily
this may take some time!!
viv

My starting point was a bible I have which belonged to Dorothy Francis. She received it January 7 1904 from Rev. Isaac at St George's Sunday School Worcester. Her baptism record shows Dorothy being baptised on 6 March 1905 aged 15. Her parents are shown as John and Kate.

On 1891 census Dorothy (shown as Frances) is shown with her grandparents George and Mary Dyer and two other grandchildren. Kate was the daughter of George and Mary.

ann
i will have to sleep soon ,but i will look into this much more in the morning,
every little you have to help ,helps us,
and i had thought of the,,frances,,spelling as census have allsorts!
even if you think it is of no use,put it on here .
viv

Viv - I'm so glad you're off to bed as well! I didn't sleep much last night and am really tired but didn't like to leave you searching. Will see what else I can come up with tomorrow and see if my husband can remember any more.

Thanks for your help

Ann

I just wanted to note -- Ann, you say after the fact that you have the 1901 census, e.g.

But nobody else here did! And censuses contain info that, when you started, you had and no body else did. Like the place of birth reported in a census. (And it's much easier for strangers to glance at a census record and absorb the info and relationships than it is to sort out a narrative.)

You say you have Dorothy's baptism. Nobody else does! So -- where was it?? Forgive me if I've missed it in the thread somewhere, but that's the info that needs to be right at the beginning.

Have you considered that if her parents were not married, she was registered as Dorothy Dyer, and looked for her under that name?

Do you know who the other grandchildren were in 1891?

George Dyer 61
Mary Dyer 64
William A Dyer 24
Winifred J Price 6 - born: Worcestershire, England
Frederick J Price 4 - born: Worcestershire, England
Dorothy Frances 1 - born: Worcestershire, England

Ancestry has assigned them all to William, but obviously Dorothy at least isn't his.

Births Mar 1885
Price Winifred Jenvey Droitwich 6c 378

and possibly

Births Jun 1886
Price Frederick James Dudley 6c 49


Jenvey - a surname? Or mistranscription of Jenney. ;)

Just reiterating the 1881:


George Dyer 55
Mary Dyer 54
Kate Dyer 28
Alfred Dyer 21
Annie Dyer 19 - could be mother of Price children
W.Charles Dyer 16
William A. Dyer 10
C.Mason Dyer 4 - son of whom?

Births Mar 1853
Dyer Kate Worcester 6c 270

all for ref.

There is one John Francis in 1881 who is a commercial traveller.

Name: John Francis
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Annie
Where born: Stratford, Essex, England

Occupation: Commercial Traveller To A Timber Merchant

John Francis 38
Annie Francis 26


It's a long way from 1881 to 1891, unfortunately.

I can't really identify that one in 1891 just to be sure.


Civil Parish: Deptford St Paul

I seem to have managed to lose a reply I just did, so if this is duplicated I apologise.

Dorothy was baptised on 6 March 1905 in the Parish of Claines, S. George, Worcester. (This was where she received her bible in 1904). Her parents are shown as John and Kate surname Francis. Address at that time was 58 Shrubbery Road. Have checked this address in 1911 census but no connection with anyone living there then.

I have looked for Dorothy Dyer in the past but with nothing coming up that ties in with our Dorothy.

Winifred and Frederick Price are the children of Annie Dyer (Price) and Frederick Price. They were not William's children. Annie was a teacher and on the 1901 census was shown working(?) in the Bristol workhouse with her daughter. I haven't got a clue what Jenvey is.

I haven't established who C Mason Dyer is - I was looking at that yesterday.

Don't know where to go with the latest John Francis but will look later.

I'm really sorry but I can only be here for some of the day today but will come back regularly.

Thanks again

C Mason Dyer 1881 census - have tried to find him today but to no avail. Have tried various combinations in the IGI and births on here and Free BMD. Will come back later hopefully.

One reason I wondered about C Mason Dyer ...

It was common for a child born to unmarried parents to have the father's surname as a given name if the child was registered with the mother's surname. (One of my great-aunts in 1890, for example.)

Mason could be that child's father's surname. And it's possible he was a child of Kate.

I did look into the Kate Mason, born 1853 Oldsbury, husband Samuel, but she was Kate Marsh when she married.

C Mason Dyer could be a red herring, or could provide a clue. ;)

Have just found probable parentage for C Mason Dyer. In my tree I have Mary Elizabeth Dyer born 1848 Have now found Mary Ellen Dyer, daughter of George and Mary Dyer, born 1847 who married Robert William Henry Mason in 1879. According to IGI they had no children - looks as if they did though.

Will have to go back through my paperwork to see how we arrived at Mary Elizabeth.

Anyway - that rules out Kate.

Have found another stray as well now - William George Dyer age 12 in 1911 living with Alice Smith (nee Dyer) his aunt. Found birth registration but no parentage so far.

Mary Elizabeth Dyer married Richard Withers in June 1888 in Shipston (which covered Worcester) 6d 937. Doesn't come up in IGI but does on free bmd and GR. This is how we reached this one. As she isn't on IGI didn't know pedigree. She was listed as Mary E Dyer on the census.

Sorry, off to bed now.

To Lancashireann

Many thanks for coming up with the death details for Kate Francis. I have just received a copy of her death certificate and it is the right Kate Francis. Sadly she died of dropsy (which I am told is like emphasema) in the Union Workhouse. The only clue to confirm it was her was the address she was admitted from.

Ann

progress - so now you know when & where she died. was she admitted to the workhouse (hospital?) before the 1901 census which could account for not being able to find her.

I'm hoping the Worcester Records Office will have some information for me. Certificate only showed where admitted from, not the date.

Have also applied for a death certificate for a John Francis who died in 1892 (just after Dorothy was born) so am hoping this is her father. Maybe his death pushed Kate over the top.

Ann