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Still puzzling over Eliza Spencer's christening in 1838. Anyone got any suggestions. This really is too early for Elizabeth and there is an Eliza Spencer born in that quarter in Lambeth but I can't find a death in Lambeth in the right period. There's one in Marylebone (not very close to Lambeth) and in 'London' and in Epping, which is where George was born?? The only Lambeth death is before Eliza was christened.

I've just noticed: 1861 census, Elizabeth seems to be recorded both with her parents and with the Amors. Might this be that her parents put her name down because she usually lived there, although she was staying with the Amors? Or might it be that they thought there were some funny goings on while Maria was ill and they wanted to somehow dispel the thought? John didn't lose much time marrying her after all. I assume she wasn't another Elizabeth Spencer without the S, perhaps Maria's nurse or the children's carer? How on earth can one know?
Also, Elizabeth Spencer's birth. There's speculation that she might have been born in 1840 (16-18 months old at 1841 census) yet there's a record of the christening of an Eliza in 1838; definitely her parents? Might there have been a neonatal death - I'll look.

Not sure about this birth - the 1841 image shows Elizabeth as 18 months (mistranscribed as 16); the census was taken on 6th June, so that makes her birth Jan 1840, so perhaps this is a bit early or perhaps they couldn't count:

Births Sep 1839 (>99%)
Spencer Elizabeth Lambeth 4 261

Haven't find Elizabeth Sophia's birth yet, but there is this christening on family search for an Eliza, and on the 1841 there is an Eliza of the right age (as well as Elizabeth):

Eliza Spencer Pedigree
Birth:
Christening: 28 OCT 1838 Saint Mary, Lambeth, Surrey, England

Parents:
Father: George Spencer Family
Mother: Ann Maria

Tell you what, though, I can't find a birth for an Elizabth Sophia c 1841 or George c 1847 or Frank E in 1854! All are said to have been born in Lambeth. Perthaps I'm just tired now. Where's my Jewish relative though???

Couldn't find a suitable Benjamin birth, but found Perigrin's:


Births Dec 1851 (>99%)

SPENCER Peregrin Lambeth 4 306

How bizarre all 3 of us came up with the same theory!!!


Tracey x

Births Dec 1851
SPENCER Peregrin Lambeth 4 306


Tracey x

Looking forward to 1861 there are three more brothers. One of them Perrigrin, born in 1852, which fits with Benjamin recorded with the Amor household in 1871. Might this have been a mis-transcription at the 1871 census? There is a Peregrin Spencer born, but not a Benjamin, in the right time frame.
This doesn't solve the problem of this Jewish gr gr grandmother, though!

This looks like Anna Maria and Elizabeth's parents in 1861 - but Elizabeth is with them! I thought the son Perrigrin might be Benjamin mistranscribed but the image says Perrigrin.

1861 England Census
about George Spencer
Name: George Spencer
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1814
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann M
Gender: Male
Where born: Epping, Essex, England

Civil Parish: Lambeth St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub registration district: Lambeth Church First
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 64
Household Members: Name Age
George Spencer 47
Ann M Spencer 47
Elizabeth S Spencer 20
George Spencer 15
Perrigrin Spencer 9
Frank E Spencer 7
Frederick Spencer 5

OK here are the family in 1861

Could Benjamin be Peregrin?

1861 England Census
about Perrigrin Spencer
Name: Perrigrin Spencer
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Ann M
Gender: Male
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Lambeth St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub registration district: Lambeth Church First
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 64
Household Members: Name Age
George Spencer 47
Ann M Spencer 47
Elizabeth S Spencer 20
George Spencer 15
Perrigrin Spencer 9
Frank E Spencer 7
Frederick Spencer 5


Tracey x

Gosh, I'm overwhelmed - thank you all. I'm confident of John & Elizabeth's daughter, Elizabeth Maria, who was born in St Pancras in 1864. She married my g grandfather after he was widowed.
I've just looked again at censuses and I see that in 1861 John & Maria had two sons: John and George , which fits with my family and Elizabeth Spencer is staying/living with them. By 1871 the rest of the family is around: Elizabeth (Maria), Joseph, William & Annie. I like the idea of John marrying a widowed Elizabeth BUT ... he certainly didn't lose any time aboiut it did he? It does look as if Elizabeth & [Ann] Maria were sisters, though I haven't yet found them with a brother, Benjamin. I'll keep looking.
Thanks everyone.

Ahh well spotted,

I think i'm half asleep.... there are 5 people in mine, and i didn't notice lol


Tracey x

The John Amor marriage that Tracey found has been mistranscribed.

>>Amor John Pancras 1b 99

The page number should be the 90, which has Elizabeth Sophia Spencer on.

If he married sisters, he didn't leave it long between losing his wife and marrying her sister?


Tracey x

Marriages Dec 1855 (>99%)
>>>>AMOR John Lambeth 1d 425
ANTHONY John Lambeth 1d 425
SMITH Sarah Lambeth 1d 425
>>>>SPENCER Ann Maria Lambeth 1d 425

JOHN AMOR Pedigree
Male Family

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
Death:
Burial:

Marriages:
Spouse: ELIZABETH SOPHIA SPENCER Family
Marriage:
28 OCT 1861 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London, England

Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

This Spencer family have daughters Elizabeth S and Anna Maria of the right ages:

1851 England Census
about Elizabeth Sophia Spencer
Name: Elizabeth Sophia Spencer
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Anna Maria
Gender: Female
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub registration district: Lambeth Church First
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 123
Household Members: Name Age
George Spencer 37
Anna Maria Spencer 37
Ama Maria Spencer 14
Elizabeth Sophia Spencer 10
George Spencer 5
Wm Hyde 43

Deaths Sep 1861 (>99%)
Amor Ann Maria Pancras 1b 102

Could ann maria & elizabeth have been sisters.

Could Elizabeth be a Widow?

Marriages Dec 1861

>>Allright Elizabeth Pancras 1b 99
>>Amor John Pancras 1b 99
Charrison George Pancras 1b 99
Davey William Pancras 1b 99
Hole Eleanor Pancras 1b 99