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Hi Ivy,
Yes the Stepney reg for Sarah had the wrong parents.
The birth registrations for Elizabeth, John and Henry are all correct, I have the certificates. I had questioned whether Rose could be George,s child, but on her Marriage Certificate,she gives her father as Patrick,gun maker.
On George,s marriage certificate his father is given as George Phealing gun maker and Charlotte,s father is William Grove,silversmith. The witnesses were Emma and Stephen Wood. I have begun to think that Patrick,s name must be Patrick George, the opposite of George,s which is George Patrick. Charlotte is given as spinster.
I will certainly have a look through the birth Reg,s for each quarter of 1877 and look for unnamed girls.
It may be as you say with your relative, her birth was never registered.
Thanks again for all your help, I,ll get back to everybody, if I ever solve all the mysteries.
Jeanette.

oops, posted this on the worng thread (Sarah Ann) by mistake:

Just summarising baptisms/registrations for family, with possible registrations for the younger children:

Marriage 1854 B'ham
George bp 1855 B'ham
Mary Ann bp 1860 Waltham Cross (Herts)
Sarah??

(Possible baptism match to the Stepney registration for Sarah Phelan posted above may be different parents:

Sarah Dinah Phelan bp 2 Aug 1857 daughter of Thomas Phelan and Dinah Phelan
Mile End Old Town Holy Trinity)

Registrations?
Elizabeth Phalen Oct-Nov-Dec 1861 Edmonton
John Phelan Apr-May-Jun 1866 Aston
Henry Falen Jan-Feb-Mar 1871 Birmingham

The rules on registration were tightened around this time (OK checked it out, 1874 Act). I wonder if Patrick was away and Esther had several young children, whether she had tried applying for relief and discovered that she needed paperwork to seek support?

So then one asks, why baptise Rose/Rosina? Perhaps because Patrick was not her father? George is now old enough to father a child.

Did Esther offer to bring up Rose and stand in as the mother at the baptism? If so, was registration too hard, with its emphasis on declaration by the mother?

However, by the time Rose was born, the Act was in force. Registration was required within 42 days, so the birth would need to be registered between 3 March 1877 and 14 April. In the GRO indexes, it would be in the first or second quarter of 1877.

I note that George and Charlotte's children shown in the 1891 census are born between 1882 and 1891, but the marriage was in 1887. Had Charlotte been married before? She gives her birthplace as Birmingham; the only good match is Charlotte Grove born approx 1857 to William and Esther Grove (1861, 1871 census returns - not seen 1881?) Have you looked at George's marriage certificate to see who the parents and witnesses were? If Charlotte was a spinster, might Rose be Charlotte's child?

If not, then it might be a matter of consistently working through the birth registrations in the first half of 1877, to see if they can be matched to a baptism or a living child shown on the 1891 census or to a death registration. These are the unnamed girls:

Jan-Mar 1877
Brampton
Hackett
Kenwrick
Myers
Scott
Shields

Apr-Jun 1877:
Arnold
Harrison
Hemming
Holland
Monk

- and then there are the 90 registrations with Ros* as a forename ....

- and if you really want to prove a negative, you could then start on the neighbouring registration districts...

PS One of my relatives had to carry around their baptism certificate, since the birth (1880s) was never registered.

Hi Dea, Ann and Shirley,
Thanks for taking the trouble to get back to me. Sorry for the extra p in Simkins and also for omitting the fact that Rose,s name had been spelt Failin on her marriage cert.
I checked out the Rose Malinda Pillin link, but found that Rose on the 1881 census and she is with a different family.
With regard to the IGI entry, I obtained a copy of the Baptismal record referred to and the address given is the correct one for my Rose. I agree that the fathers name is given as George, but wondered if brother George had been incorrectly entered as Father.
Ann, I have Esthers marriage Certificate and she is Esther Craddock and Patrick has been entered as Patt.
Dea, all the children apart from Sarah and Elizabeth appear to have been born in Birmingham.
I do really appreciate all the help I have been given. Just thought I would give it another go before deciding that I,m not going to find a Birth Reg for her.
Once again thanks a lot to everyone.
Jeanette.

That looks like a very possible Ann.

I was thinking that Rose/ina 'might' have been born in Ireland but if her parents married in Birmingham then that substantiates ?? her birth in Birmingham also :-S

Dea Xxx

is this a possibility for the Esther on 1881 - eldest son born 1854/55

Marriages Dec 1854 (>99%)
Craddock Esther Birmingham 6d 115
Jewells Martha Birmingham 6d 115
Phelan Pann Birmingham 6d 115
Phelan Patt Birmingham 6d 115
Wedge William Birmingham 6d 115

"I did find Rosina on the IGI, that is how I know that she was christened as Rosina and not Rose as named in all the census records"

she was named as Rose on all the census records AND on her marriage certificate so why are we looking for a Rosina please? That baptism on the igi is not necessarily yours especially as the named father is George not Patrick or am I missing something here?

looked at it on FreeBMD and its Pilling could have been an accents mix up if the parents couldn't read or write

wonder if this is her the transcriber wasnt sure of the surname and the page is no longer viewable

Name: Rosina Malinda Pillin?
Date of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1877
Registration district: Birmingham
Inferred County: Warwickshire
Volume: 6d
Page: 30

1871 census

Name: George Phalen
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Esther Phalen
Gender: Male
Where born: Birmingham
Civil parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: Bishop Ryder
Town: Birmingham
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Household schedule number: 127
Piece: 3108
Folio: 105
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Esther Phalen 33
George Phalen 15
Mary Ann Phalen 13
Sarah Ann Phalen 11
Elizabeth Phalen 9
John Phalen 4
Henry Phalen 2 Months
address 30 Sheep Street
Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 3108; Folio: 105; Page: 23; GSU roll: 839575.

mum is down as married but no father with them

thanks Dea

I made the mistake of spelling it like Jeanette with the 'p' in Simkins and phonetic search did not pick it up - or Failin for Phelan

Births Dec 1915
Simkins Nellie Failin Tamworth 6b 692

Dea x

This will be the marriage:

Marriages Dec 1903 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BROWN Edward John Tamworth 6b 779
Failin Rose Tamworth 6b 779
Meer Lucy Tamworth 6b 779
Simkins Ernest William Tamworth 6b 779

Dea x

just to go back to basics here and note that the igi does not have all baptisms recorded.

Please can you post the details of daughter Nellie's birth as I can't find a registration in 1914-1916

in fact I can't find a marriage in 1903 either

Hi Potty, thanks for replying. You mention posts being deleted from this thread and ask why? I have no idea when and where posts have been deleted, I certainly have never deleted any. I haven,t used the boards for a while, so wasn,t aware of any activity.
On the 1881 census Rosina,s surname has been entered as Phalin, she is living at 18 Sheep Street, Birmingham with mother Esther 44 and George26, Sarah 21, John16 and Henry 11.
In 1891 her surname is entered as Phaling, she is with mother Esther and brother Harry at house 1 back of No.40 Sheep Street, Birmingham.
By 1901 she is living with Charlotte, her sister-in-law, George,s wife and Charlotte,s children at 101 Holte Street, Aston Birmingham. surname given as Phealing.
In 1903 she marries Ernest William Simpkins at St Editha,s Church Tamworth and they have a daughter Nellie born 1915.
I have a baptismal record from St Mary,s church Whittal St, Birmingham which gives her Father as George and mother Esther. Her marriage lines however give her father as Patrick. I have never been able to find a birth registration for her. Sorry all this has been so long winded, but thought I would put down all I know.
Thanks for interest,
Jeanette.

Jeanette, as so many posts seem to have been deleted from this thread ('Why?), it might be a good idea to add something to your first post so people realise you are still looking . You say you have all the censuses. Just for info, could you post one that includes Rose? Did she marry and if so do you have her marriage cert to confirm her father's name?

nudge for me,

Jeanette

nudge for me,
Jeanette.

Hi all, am now back on the computer, just in case, keep my fingers crossed, anyone has any better luck finding Gt Aunt Rosina than I,ve had.
Thanks for help offered so far,
Jeanette.

Hi all,
I shall be away from the computer for a while, getting a meal ready, just in case I miss any replies, get back later.
Thanks for help so far.
Jeanette.

Hi Potty,
I have most of the census records for the family, although this in itself throws up another mystery, Patrick does not appear again on any other census records with the family, although further children are born. Esther does not declare herself a widow until 1891,so whether patrick is constantly working away from home ,either in the army or elsewhere, I don,t know. I,m really grateful for the time and trouble taken to help me sort my mystery out for me.
Thanks, Jeanette.