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'By George. I've GOT IT !!!...........

Marriage:

Minnie Fowler to John Read
Dec Q 1920 Barnsley 9c 554.

Dea Xxx

P.S.

You say the death you found for a Minnie aged 41 in 1939 would make her born 1889 ???? - This would actually make her born c 1898 , which would match the 3 year old you have on 1901.

Dea x

Dea - you're amazing!

Thanks

That will save my hair - as I was ready to pull it out!

This seems to be 'that' Minnie's family in 1911 - perhaps you can find some more contacts from it?

Last names FOWLER
Last names Algorithm Exact
Residence BARNSLEY
Other person last names FOWLER
Other person last names Algorithm Exact
Other person first names MINNIE
Other person first names Algorithm Exact


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1
Schedule type Last names First names Sex Birth year Age in 1911 District / other County / other Transcript Original page
HOUSEHOLD FOWLER ADA F 1873 38 Barnsley Yorkshire West Riding
HOUSEHOLD FOWLER ELSIE F 1906 5 Barnsley Yorkshire West Riding
HOUSEHOLD FOWLER HAROLD M 1897 14 Barnsley Yorkshire West Riding
HOUSEHOLD FOWLER SIDNEY M 1909 2 Barnsley Yorkshire West Riding
HOUSEHOLD FOWLER THOMAS H M 1878 33 Barnsley Yorkshire West Riding
HOUSEHOLD FOWLER WILFRED M 1911 2 MONTHS Barnsley Yorkshire West Riding
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Dea x

*** TRYING TO FIND JOHN READ'S ANCESTORS ***

Now that I've established John Read's marriage to Minnie Fowler and his address prior to his marriage, I am trying to find further info.

John died in Wombwell, Barnsley in 1984.
He married Minnie Fowler in 1920 and was widowed in 1939.
He re-married to a Mary Eleanor Violet Cansfield (? year) - she died 1989.

According to John's marriage cert to Minnie, his father is Charles Read who in 1920 was a Carter.
According to his death record, John was born 27/10/1896. (this would make John to be aged 4 or 5 on previous birthday on 1901 census)

I have searched birth records for a John Read born Q4 1896 and can find:
Births Dec 1896 (>99%)
Read John Pontardawe 11a 920
Read John Blackburn 8e 421
Read John Walsingham 4b 297
Read John James P Chorlton 8c 838

I have searched the 1901 census and cannot find a John Read born 1896 or 1897 with a father named Charles.
The only John on the 1901 census with a father named Charles was born c1898 - aged 3 on the census.

Is it likely that the census year of birth is out by 2yrs? Or could the date of birth listed on the death record be wrong? Does John or Charles Read appear on your family tree?

Any more help would be much apreciated x

Hi again,

May not be able to do much today but could you put all the info on here from the marriage cert please?

Names, addresses, ages, fathers, occupations, + witnesses.

I will see if I can find anything for you.

Dea x

Hi again Dea - we might have to set up our own page to swap info!

The marriage took place on 4th December 1920 between

John Read, a bachelor aged 24, working as a washer hand and residing at 19 John Street. Father is Charles Read, a carter.

Minnie Fowler, a spinster aged 22 and residing at 22 John Street. Father is Thomas Fowler, a miner.

They married at The Parish Church, Wombwell, Barnsley (probably now known at St Mary's as this is where I was christened) and the witneses were Leonard Lunn and Maggie T (surname difficult to read - looks like Danirin - Definitely starts DA possibly ends IN)

Good morning,

Just had a 'little look around' and this is what I found.

I believe it all connects but obviously it MUST be properly checked and proved by certs!!!

Will probably have to post this in several sections as it will be too long for one post!
.................

So.. Working on the info from John's Wedding Cert:

Firstly - witnesses:

Leonard Lunn:

Marriages Mar 1923
Lunn Leonard Mawson Doncaster 9c 1131
Mawson Mabel A Lunn Doncaster 9c 1131

Doesn't seem to connect - probably just a friend!
..................

Maggie T Da?????in ?

This would be Maggie T Darwin, and this her marriage

Marriages Mar 1924
Brooks John Darwin Doncaster 9c 1022
Darwin Maggie T Brooks Doncaster 9c 1022
....................

Again, no obvious connection to the names but followed through to 1901:

1901 England Census
about Maggie T Darwin
Name: Maggie T Darwin
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1892
Relation: Adopted Daughter *****
Gender: Female
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Askham Bryan
Ecclesiastical parish: Askham Bryan St Nicholas
Town: Askham Bryan
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England


Registration district: Tadcaster
Sub-registration district: Tadcaster
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 28
Household Members: Name Age
Francis Darwin 31
Elizabeth Darwin 34
Maggie T Darwin 9


Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 4433; Folio: 123; Page: 4.

Source Information:

Looking for a marriage of her adoptive parents:

Marriages Sep 1893
Darwin Francis E.Retford 7b 7
Read Elizabeth E. Retford 7b 7
.........................

** We now have a connection to the name READ, and to Nottingham !!

Dea x

Following Elizabeth through the census, I find she has a brother Charles !!!
- This COULD be the father of 'your' John ???

1871 England Census
about Elizabeth Read
Name: Elizabeth Read
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Hayton, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Clayworth
Ecclesiastical parish: Clayworth
Town: Clayworth
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Street address:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: East Retford
Sub-registration district: Gringley
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 74
Household Members: Name Age
John Read 27
Mary Read 28
Elizabeth Read 6
George William Read 3
Charles Read 1 ???????????????????????????
Maria Jane Read 3 months

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 3450; Folio: 78; Page: 20; GSU roll: 839418.

Following 'this' Charles then........

1881:
Charles Read
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Hayton, Nottinghamshire, England

Civil Parish: Wiseton
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England

Street address: Old Wiseton
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: East Retford
Sub-registration district: Gringley
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Read 37
Mary Read 38
Elizabeth Read 14
George Wm. Read 13
Charles Read 11
Maria Read 9
Annie Read 8
Harriet Read 7
Levi Read 6
Mary Read 2

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 3299; Folio: 74; Page: 22; Line: ; GSU roll: 1341786.

..............................

1891:

Elizabeth - servant in Yorkshire

Charles Farm Labr, still in Nottinghamshire
...............................


1901 England Census
about Charles Read
Name: Charles Read
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Emily
Gender: Male
Where born: Hayton, Nottinghamshire, England

Civil Parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: Everton
Town: Everton
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Country: England



Registration district: East Retford
Sub-registration district: Gringley
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 110
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Read 31 Gen Agricultural labourer
Emily Read 28 b ?Musson?? Notts/Lincs
Nelly Read 2
Vincent Read 11 months both children born Everton? Notts/Lincs

NO JOHN !!!!!!!!!!!! ............................

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 3117; Folio: 29; Page: 17.

Dea x

??????????? Still think it's them.... So - checked births and marriages

Marriages Sep 1895 ............ possible ??
Read Charles Doncaster 9c 1017
Williamson Emily Doncaster 9c 1017

.......................

If Charles + Emily DID have a son John then this one would fit very well if he was registered a
little late he would have come into this Quarter - NOT uncommon !!

Births Mar 1897
Read John E. Retford 7b 1

We now need to find where the John registered in March Q was on 1901 and see if he will connect !!
.......................................................................................

Bingo...........

He is with his grandparents - the 'Williamson's' !!!!

1901:

John Reed
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1897
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: Annie ** (This has been 'assumed' from looking at the other members of the household and is not necessarily correct !!!)
Gender: Male
Where born: Everton, Nottinghamshire, England

Civil Parish: Misson
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England


Registration district: Doncaster
Sub-registration district: Bawtry
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 17
Household Members: Name Age
John Williamson 68 Farmer
Ann Williamson 66
Ezra Williamson 35
Annie Williamson 29
John Reed 4 ............................Grandson !!!!!

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 4415; Folio: 111; Page: 4.

I believe this now all fits, however you will need to sort through it all
and see what certs you need to prove it.

I think we can safely say that these people are all part of 'your' Read family!!

I believe it is VERY probable that Elizabeth's brother Charles is the one who married
Emily Williamson and that Charles + Emily are the parents of 'your' John.........

I have to go off for a while but will come back as soon as I can

Let me know what you think.

Dea x

nudge - I'm back now .......

Dea x

Anybody there ?????????

Dea x

Hi Dea

wow - lots of info for me to sift through this morning - I'm glad I was too tired to log on after work yesterday or I would probably have sat up for half the night!

I guess I'll have to buy some credits to look at the 1911 census to see where Charles is at this time and who he lives with. I just find it strange that in 1901 he would be living with grandparents when the parents are still living with the other children.

!911 could prove or disprove this - as I said - there is another John Read on the 1901 census with a father named Charles, although I think it makes him too young on that one. I guess his date of birth on the death record could be incorrect tho.

Thanks for all the other info - it does seem tho that you may be correct as you found a link from his Darwin marriage witness to a Read family.

I'll look into things and let you know!

Maybe you could shed some light into my Joseph Watkin/Elizabeth Guest thread!!!

Dea

I can find on the 1911 census the Charles and Emily Read that you mentioned previously. Now living at Darfield which is the next village to Wombwell where John married.

However, John is not living with them. I can the John you mentioned still living in the Retford Nottingham area.

I was hoping to find someone from the Read family living at 19 John Street Wombwell in 1911 as this is the address given by John on his war records and marriage certificate. Unfortunately I can't even find 19 John Street - tho I can see that Minnie Fowler (John's c1896 wife is living at 22 John Str in 1911)

I will keep looking!

More info............

1911 - Charles and Emily Read live in Edderthorpe, Darfield with their children Nelly 12, Norah 8, Dora 3days and a boarder. No Charles, And this time, no Vincent.

I searched 10yr old Vincent Read on the 1911 census and he is living in the Barnsley area with one Sarah Williamson aged 50! Williamson is the surname of the possible grandparents that John is living with!

Now to search more info on Sarah Williamson...................

Vincent Williamson is the son of John + Ann (Emily's brother). (Vincent and John's uncle??)

He married Sarah Morley in Rotherham in 1895!

Dea x

P.S. - If you find Vincent Snr on 1871 - son of John + Ann, you will also find another generation back i.e. John's father George c 1798.

Dea x

Hello Dea

I had just found that info and double-checked it but you beat me to typing it on here!!!!

Guess that means that John Reed living with grandparents in 1901 MUST be my grandfather - it's just a shame I can't link them all to the house 19 John Street at Wombwell.

I'm surprised that on his war pension details John gives his father Charles as his next of kin tho if his Grandparents brought him up.

Might have to check now to see if they were still alive in 1911 or if thats why he moved back to his parents.

He could just have happened to be staying with them on those occasions - my grand-daughter LOVES to stay with me overnight - it is an 'adventure.

I pick her up and she is there behind the door with her little suitcase - packed before breakfast and singing 'I'm SO excited, la la lah!!'

In 1911 his parents had a 3-day old baby - an ideal time to 'send the boys away' ??

1901 - they had 2 small children, again, they would have been glad of the break??

I wish I could find my relatives so easily !!

Dea x

yeah that's a fair point Dea.

I just so want this info to be right before I start adding it onto my tree.

The John Street house is the missing link but seeing as I can't seem to find the record for it, then I may be stuck. I'll have to come back to it in 20yrs time when the 1911 and 1921 census should be freely available!!!

Yes, I know what you mean Michelle!

I have kept a couple of seperate trees for years, 'knowing' they were my relatives but yet not able to add them to my main tree because I didn't have 'proof' that they were correct.

Try putting all those new names in the 'quick search' at top of page and see if you can find a match ??

Dea x

Thanks to everyone - especially Dea!

Turns out that my useless dad neglected to tell me that his fathers cousin is alive and well in the same village and I hve now been to visit her and confirmed that

Charles Read did marry Emily Williamson and had their children in Lincs.

The family that Dea found ARE my ancestors so I cna now definitely trace further back.