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pm sent to rosibo.

rosibo ...............


unfortunately, JaneyCanuck is no longer a member of GR, not even as a free member, and there is no way for you to contact her or for her to know about this posting.


I do have irregular contact with her off-site, so I will copy your post and send it to her.

Just wanted to add some information to this. My research includes the DAVIS family, and I thought you would like to know that there was a wrong assumption above - namely that the Maria married to Joseph Bedloe Davis in 1838 is the same Maria who is living with him in 1861. In fact his first wife Maria [née] Jones died in 1848, and Joseph married another Maria, Maria Williams, on 20 July 1850, at St Martin's, Salisbury (PR record). There is also a Marriage Settlement in Wiltshire & Swindon Archive Catalogue, Ref 776/857 (Wiltshire County Council). See his profile on my Ancestry tree http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/9856874/person/24657415819

I don't know if this is of any use, but thought that, since you have a Williams connection anyway, there may be some threads worth following.

By the way, don't dismiss all Ancestry trees and researchers. There's "crud" on every site - what I call the "Hooverers" who suck everything up and regurgitate it, but nonetheless I have found Ancestry, despite its gross misunderstanding of UK records and too much hint-copying in the trees, to be the most productive site. You do have to tease everything apart and work through to find the sources, but Ancestry has in the last 10 years considerably expanded my own trees, hitherto conventionally researched for 42 years. Many hints have turned out to be very useful, unlike those on GR! I started entering trees on both sites, but when GR started sending me hints to random people of the same name with no common features to the person on my tree, I rather abandoned my tree on GR and switched to Ancestry and Find my Past. I must say all the sites have made changes both for the better and for the worse during the 10 years in which I have used them, including also TheGenealogist and FamilySearch. All have useful features, and all have weaknesses. The secret is getting to know how to evade the crud!

Janey..... please....it's 1839 !!!

"marriage to Anne Rae in Scotland 1939 "

Grrrr...

T x

Michael who found me my Richard Castle Bernard (Richard Barnard Sr) marriage to Anne Rae in Scotland 1939 [sigh! yes, Tracey, I just saw that, it's 1839, not 1939!!] -- a big hand for Michael! would I *ever* have found that?? -- has just PMed me, having seen that I'm back on the trail. ;)

(I really don't know why my previous thread was deleted. Pure malice on someone's part, I have no doubt.)

Michael, you asked whether I had tried the familysearch "pilot" thingy and, duh, I didn't realize, that's where I've been finding this new stuff, Richard Sr's marriage in Bristol and Richard Jr's baptism in the thread. (The marriage in Scotland is also there.) Hadn't been paying attention. I hadn't been able to use it when I first heard about it because it was all Flash and I wasn't compatible, but it's been working for me for some weeks now, anyhow.

C'mon, take a bow. ;)

And my wild theory is wrong. No lunatic grx3 grandmother for me.

Name: Frances Ann Bernard
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 05 Jun 1806
Baptism/Christening Place: St Augustine-the-Less, Bristol, Gloucester, England
Birth Date: 28 Dec 1804
Father's Name: Henery Jones Bernard
Mother's Name: Mary Rhodes
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


So maybe that one living with Maria Jones Davis and her husband in 1861 is mine after all ...

Frances Barnard
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1796
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Female
Where born: Hilton, Dorset, England

Frances Barnard 65 - fundholder
Joseph B Davis 45 - master carpenter, employer
Maria Davis 44 - born Milford, Wiltshire (part of Salisbury), c1817
William Davis 6
Ann Foreman 22

Civil Parish: Salisbury St Martin
County/Island: Wiltshire


Wait, what? I posted that and then looked at it -- Henery *Jones* Bernard. ?? Who are all these Joneses I'm tripping on?

Just tell her it's genealogy karma, and it will come back to her. But not to bite! This is my genealogy karma, and I only bite when hugged. ;)

All that stuff I've found for you, not to mention all the others -- and the one time I find a lunatic, it has to be in my own family. I don't know what kind of genealogy karma that might be. I suspect post-partum depression/psychosis. Maybe the mood disorders actually come from the Collins-s, not the Barnards. Or maybe Barnard men just drive their women crazy.

So yup, that's it, although I do have the Ann Barnard + George Jones 1828 marriage info from transcribed parish records already and I doubt there's anything more there. Mainly, that William Cooke or Cook birth, parents' names (and anything else there).

Actually -- the Barnard+Collins marriage 1814 and Richard Bernard baptism 1819 -- they might say Richard Sr's occupation, so can I beg a check on them too still?

I would love to know whether there are any other births to Richard Bernard/Barnard and Frances Collins from 1914 onward, but I think that's a bit of a chore to be looking into. Maybe she would ask them what it would take to have that search done, if they'd do it?

And I will hug her if she finds anything at all!

Okay, I have just booked us three extra nights in Bristol (touring caravan, everywhere booked up, but a new site opened THIS WEEK).

So, you are okay on the Richard and Frances Collins marriage, and Richard's christening in 1819. But still interested in William Cook(e) b Dec 1856, and marriage of Ann Barnard to George Jones in 1828. Is that right?

Anything else?

Daughter will do anything, after receiving her inheritance from me early, enabling her and partner to buy a pokey flat in the most expensive part of Bristol (Clifton), where most people cannot even afford a shed to live in. I saw a houseboat advertised for £150,000. Daughter is also fairly interested in family history, and is a good girl. Like me?????

Let's just hope AuntySherlock doesn't get hold of this thread, or she'll be filling it up even more with known knowns and known unknowns ... (Where is she, anyway?? Must email her.)

Samuel who married in 1806 I think I mentioned; if not, I should have, sorry. I haven't been able to find any other trace of him. If he were a son of Barnard+Castle, he'd have been included in the removal order from Dorset in 1791. The children named were Ann and Thomas, who was one year old and possibly born in Dorset - but since I've now found his death at a young age, I can write off all the efforts I'd made to find him. And the Wiltshire Records Office sent me all Barnard/Bernard baptisms of children of Benjamin+Mary, no Samuel.

To get an idea of how Barnards littered the landscape in Wiltshire (and how many had my Barnards' names), do a search for Barnard in the wills index:

http://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/heritage/

Just search for surname Barnard, no other details -- 163 results. The results show location, and there are lots of Mere-s. Not knowing when Benjamin was born, I have no idea when to look for his parents' deaths.

The weird thing is that with so many Barnards all over in the 1600s and 1700s, by the time the censuses roll around we have only two lots left: my Richard Sr in Mere (whose only known son never had anything to do with Wiltshire and may have had no idea that's where his family was from) and the Bernard formerly Barnard clan in Marlborough. All the others in later censuses are imports, mainly from the plentiful Norfolk clan.

At least they're not like my once-plentiful Lincolnshire Rushlands (the only ones in England) -- extinct by the time of the censuses, only the married daughters of the last male Rushland carrying on.

Oh. On doing a search of 1851 for Barnard in Wiltshire, I think I've solved the 1861 Frances Barnard mystery. Always best to do these things when you're awake.

[I'm deleting info about a Fanny Barnard and husband John in Mere, who I think are red herrings. John turns out to be from Essex, home of a large Barnard clan, and I found a more likely Frances then, as shown below.]


Deaths Sep 1875
Bernard Frances Ann 80 Chippenham 5a 35

... Well, that's this one in 1871:

Name: Frances A Bernard
Age: 71
Estimated birth year: abt 1800
Relation: Patient - lunatic
Where born: Wells, Somerset, England
Civil parish: Box
Town: Highworth
County/Island: Wiltshire
Registration district: Chippenham
Address: Lunatic Asylum

whom I don't see in 1861.

but hm, 1841:

Name: Frances Ann Bernard
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Where born: Not (not born in county)
Civil parish: Box
County/Island: Wiltshire
Kingsdown House Lunatic Asylum

Got her in 1861

Name: F B
Age: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Relation: Patient
Where born: Wells, Somerset, England
- unmarried, invalid, Kingsdown House Lunatic Asylum
Civil parish: Box
County/Island: Wiltshire

That lunatic asylum one is quite interesting. The age in 1871 is likely off -- dob per age at death was c1795, which would be perfect for my Frances Collins. And recall that Richard Sr was baptised and married, in both Bristol and Scotland, as Bernard, his "official" name, an error in the family name made at his baptism, it being otherwise Barnard in all instances.

And it would be an interesting explanation for bigamy -- that Frances was in the institution in Wiltshire at the 1841 census, and Richard Sr was in Scotland, having married there in 1839.



Tracey! I already posted the deaths of Mary (Castle) Barnard and Benjamin Barnard! Transcribed from the records I got from the Records Office.

And I'm all over daughter Ann! She's the one I think married George Jones, who has grandson William Cooke in Somerset in 1861, about whom I've been spilling pixels all over the thread. ;)

Benjamin born 1734 seems, to my mind, to be a little old to have married in 1781 and had children into the 1790s.

For info, this is the short transcript of the removal order:

Group number 2651 in Wiltshire Removal Orders
1. Name Benjamin BARNARD
Head? y
Date 1792 Jan
– Removed from Poole St James DOR to Mere
Notes - husb of Mary WSRO ref 438/42
2. Name Mary BARNARD – (ditto)
3. Name Ann BARNARD – (ditto)
4. Name Thomas BARNARD – (ditto)

Janey,

I have to ask....is this one yours too?

County Wiltshire, Place Mere
Church St Michael the Archangel
MarriageDate 26 Jan 1806

GroomForename Samuel
GroomSurname BARNARD
GroomCondition Bachelor

BrideForename Ann
BrideSurname BENJAFIELD
BrideCondition Spinster

FileNumber 10304

~~~~
....and just keeping up with your Benjamin, he's a witness at this wedding.

County Wiltshire, Place Mere
Church St Michael the Archangel
MarriageDate 11 May 1778

GroomForename William
GroomSurname NORRIS
GroomParish West Knoyle Wilts
GroomCondition Widower

BrideForename Rebecca
BrideSurname ALFORD

WitnessOneForename Benjamin
WitnessOneSurname BARNARD
WitnessTwoForename Joseph
WitnessTwoSurname BECKETT
Notes Banns
FileNumber 10304

~~~~~~~~
OK, seeing as i have use of FMP i thought i'd use it... could this Benjamin be yours?

Day: 12
Month: Aug
Year: 1734
Forenames: Benjamin
Surname: BARNARD
Fathers forenames: Thomas
Mothers forenames: Elizabeth
Place: Mere
Description:
County: Wiltshire
Country: England
Notes: BARNET in Reg : BARNARD in BT

Possibly this Benjamin's death?

First name(s): Benjamin
Last name: BARNARD
Date of burial: 14 Aug 1801
Calculated year of birth: Not known
Place of burial: Mere
Dedication: St Michael
County: Wiltshire

Mere St Michael: Denomination: Anglican
Coverage: 1561 - 1837
Number of entries: 11,414

~~~~~~~~~
You have listed Elizabeth, this is a daughter Ann.

Day: 24
Month: Jul
Year: 1785
Forenames: Ann
Surname: BARNARD
Fathers forenames: Benjamin
Mothers forenames: Mary
Place: Mere
County: Wiltshire
Country: England
Notes: BERNARD in Reg : BARNARD in BT

~~~~~
Richard's mother?

First name(s): Mary
Last name: BARNARD
Date of burial: 1 Jul 1812
Calculated year of birth: Not known
Place of burial: Mere
Dedication: St Michael
County: Wiltshire

Mere St Michael: Denomination: Anglican
Coverage: 1561 - 1837 Number of entries: 11,414


Tracey x

Just talking to myself about Frances Barnard ... working on theories ...

Mere is a little tiny place. More than one Robert Hill the same age? Not in 1841.


1851

Name: Frances Hill
Age: 63
Estimated birth year: abt 1788
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Robert
Where born: Silton, Dorset, England

Civil parish: Mere
County/Island: Wiltshire

Robert Hill 70 - Proprietor of Houses
Frances Hill 63


1841

Name: Robert Hill
Age: 60
Estimated birth year: abt 1781
Where born: Wiltshire, England

Civil parish: Mere
County/Island: Wiltshire

Robert Hill 60
Mary Hill 60


Oh well, crrp, ruling out, anyhow:

Marriages Jun 1849
Hill Robert Mere 8 687
Turner Francess Mere 8 687

Sure does look like he married up, though. ;) And I did not need more Hills in my road.



There's a Frances Barnett with daughter Julia, female servants, in 1841 in Chilmark; can't trace 'em after that; most Barnard clans have somebody turn up as Barnett at some time or another.

There's a Frances Collins with children in Wylye, Wiltshire (halfway between Warminster and Salisbury, 10 miles east on the road from Mere), in same place 1851 (Frances is Fanny, born in Heytesbury, Wilts).


If anybody has any ideas about that Frances Barnard in Wiltshire in 1861, born in Hilton, Dorset, who could just be my grx3 grandmother -- I'd love to hear!

Of course, my apparent grx3 grmother Frances Collins Barnard could have died in 1818 or not long after ... but I'd still be curious about who that one is in 1861. ;)

Anyhow, not a bad evening's work!


also just adding to confirm my assumption:

Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Female
Burial Date: 13 Mar 1783
Burial Place: Mere, Wiltshire, England
Father's Name: Benjamin Barnard
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: B01582-8
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1279350
Collection: England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991


Oh, and also the Barnards born c1820 in Bristol I've noted in censuses and idly followed around in the past. In 1881:

John Barnard Elizabeth abt 1823 Bristol, Gloucestershire, England Head Westbury On Trym, Gloucestershire
- stud groom

Willm. Barnard abt 1825 Bristol Boarder Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire
- stud groom

George Barnett [George Barnard] Eliza abt 1823 Bristol, Somerset, England Head Kyo, Durham
- colliery lab

Thomas Barnard Jane abt 1824 Bristol Head Gloucester St Mary Lode, Gloucestershire
- no occupation (paralyzed; wife is washerwoman)


But - George, William and John Bernard, sons of John Bernard and Sarah, were baptised en batch in 1825 in Bristol. Leaving me with an unknown, Thomas.


There's another batch, the ones I focused on for a while, who can now be ignored, as they are shown as children of Caroline in Bristol. (One son, James, married Sophia James, etc.) They are, in 1841 in Bristol St Philip and St Jacob:

Jas Barnard 23 - son of Caroline
Sophia Barnard 30
Ellen Barnard 2
James Barnard 9 Mo
Caroline Barnard 47 (born London)
Robert Barnard 9 - son of Caroline

The father of the two Barnard boys is still a mystery, and could still turn out to be connected with me, who knows ...

Tracey -- googled your book. ;)

http://books.google.ca/books?id=jenVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA471&lpg=PA471&dq=
%22wiltshire+beau%22&source=bl&ots=XzXnYTaPmY&sig=oWr1HfC7MHe8mhq0iZ-lHJfC_Wo&hl=
en&ei=Ki9rTJb_EsP88Abb59zyAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=
0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22wiltshire%20beau%22&f=false

Forgive that; it's a google books result.



"The Critical review, or, Annals of literature, Volume 19, by Tobias George Smollett"

date at front of book is MDCCLXV -- 1765.


The Wiltshire Beau: or the Life and Adventures of Ben Barnard. 2 Vols. 12 mo. Pr. 5s. Nicoll.

We have already given the character of this novel, in that of all the vile publications which have been made in this species of writing. The author seems to be a retainer to the theatres, for his Wiltshire Beau is an adept in spouting of every kind. Nothing comes amiss to him. He turns stroller; sets up for a professor of speaking and eloquence; and half his book is no other than an introduction to certain dissertations on what he calls oratory in the pulpit, at the bar, in the senate, and on the stage. We must, however, do him the justice to own that his dissertations have at least as much merit as those of other exhibitors on the same subject.

With regard to the adventures of our Beau, they are dull and uninteresting beyond all expression. He possesses the same virtues, failings, and vices, with other novel heroes; and, like them, may prove useful furniture for a circulating library.



Well thank goodness it's a novel!! ;)

Don't you just hate who you find you're related to sometimes?

I'm already related to a right-winger in the US I had to ask to stop sending me religious-right crud. I just found this, re the Barnard brothers who settled Martha's Vineyard:

http://www.pcez.com/~bigshoe/du/Rice/smithwl.html

(I believe the Wiltshire suggestion is the one that came originally from me, via a genforum board, a few years ago -- and a descendant did tell me that one of the original Barnards is recorded on Martha's Vineyard, at death, as born in Chilmark, i.e. Wiltshire. Thomas Macy of Chilmark, Wilts, originally settled in Salisbury, Mass. I mean, duh.)

4634. Thomas Barnard /Barnett

* b. ABT 1608 Lowestoft, Suffolk, England
* d. 7 July 1677 Amesbury, i. Salisbury, Essex, MA (killed by Indians)
* to America 1640
* Occupation: Planter, Husbandman
* Father: poss. Thomas B. Barnard
* Mother: poss. Anne Cooke

"There is no real proof to the parentage of (4634) Thomas and (9269vii) Robert. [It was certainly NOT] William and Emily (Nye) Barnard of Yorkshire Co., England. One of the ladies doing Barnard research says she had research done on the Wiltshire Barnards, but there was no way to tie them into the young men who emigrated to the colonies. She says a stronger case is made that the parents were (9268) Thomas and (9269) Ann (Cooke) Barnard of Suffolk Co., England. Patricia Burns has done extensive research, and this line seems to be the most valid one...


http://www.pcez.com/~bigshoe/

Presumed President Obama applied for and got student aid as a "foreign student". His grade school records show him as an Indonesian citizen, and His grandmother avows that he was born in Kenya. Why is Mr. Obama trying to hide the facts of his birth? Is it because non-native-born US Citizens cannot Constitutionally become U. S. President? Obama consistantly refuses to release to the public a copy of a long-form live birth record that could prove that he was born in the United States. Shouldn't he be required by law to do this?



Shouldn't people this noxious be prevented from using the internet? ;)



Tracey, yes, I meant 1781! First daughter was born 1782, and I always mix that up. And I did put that transcript in a previous post. ;)

...you of course meant 1781?

County Wiltshire
Place Mere
Church St Michael the Archangel
RegisterNumber
MarriageDate 18 Jul 1781
GroomForename Benjamin
GroomSurname BARNARD

BrideForename Mary
BrideSurname CASTLE

WitnessOneForename William
WitnessOneSurname MOORS
WitnessTwoForename Ann
WitnessTwoSurname MOORE
Notes Banns
FileNumber 10304


:-)

Tracey x

Tracey, ha! My Benjamin married Mary Castle in 1782, so he might have been a little young to have a book written about him by 1765.

But as in many families (my Littler men are all Samuel and William, Hill men are all William and James ...), there are names common to Barnard men -- amazingly, no matter which separate clan they belong to. Benjamin, Richard and Thomas are the biggies.

There are the two main clans of Barnards in Wiltshire at the time that I know of: Marlborough and Mere. (I'm very convinced that the Barnard brothers who settled Martha's Vineyard in the 1600s with a Thomas Macy/Macey from Chilmark are from my bunch; Chilmark, Tisbury -- both names appear on Martha's Vineyard -- form a tiny triangle with Mere.)

Given that mine were being expelled under the Poor Law in 1791 from Dorset, I suspect they were the poor cousins. Although, with gambling and bad money management being in the blood ...

Anyhow that's quite interesting! I'll see whether anything at Wiltshire Wills matches up. (I think that so far there's nothing there to give me a link to earlier generations of Mere Barnards for whom there are wills shown -- I have a gap that would have to be bridged.)


edit ... 163 Barnard wills at the site (including quite a few in Mere) -- no Benjamin ...

See us irking you got you there!!


T x

OMG I found him at the new familysearch.

Name: Richard Bernard
Baptism/Christening Date: 12 Sep 1819
Baptism/Christening Place: Bristol, Gloucester, England
Father's Name: Richard Bernard
Mother's Name: Frances
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C00888-0
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1596534
Reference Number: item 3 p 148
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


Searched for Richard with mother Frances and there he was.

OMG OMG OMG! I dunnit!


He is the one and only birth to parents Richard Bernard and Frances, of course.

errrr, Janey

What is the relevance of this book; 'Wiltshire Beau, or the Life of Ben. Barnard' ??

Aparently it was advertised in The Gentleman's Magazine of 1765.

Could this be your Benjamin?


T x

So listen, you guys!

Everything in MY posts is fact -- except where I state it as theory (Ann Jones, Frances Barnard).

Never mind the idiocy on other people's Ancestry trees, or other lookalike Barnards/Bernards!


Madmeg -- I think I would be sending your daughter on a goose chase. ;) But if she really really wouldn't be put out by it, what's wanted is:

>>> birth of Richard Barnard c1820-21 in Bristol, father supposedly Richard Barnard, gold-beater, per the son's marriage certificates

It's the mother's name I'm so eager to know.

- edit - Richard Jr's death suggests he was born mid-1818 to mid-1819:

Deaths Sep 1898
Barnard Richard 79 Canterbury 2a 562

- edit - edit - newsflash - I found his baptism, see next page:
Richard Bernard, 12 Sep 1819, Bristol, parents Richard Bernard and Frances.
So any details would be most welcome!!


So the other thing to be checked is then:

>>> marriage of Richard Barnard and Frances Collins, 21 March 1814, St Paul's, Bristol, Gloucester, England

The question being whether there's any identifying information about either of them, e.g. father's names, groom's occupation, home parish.


Oh yes! And that William Cook birth:

>>> William Cook, registered Q4 1856 Bristol

The question there being the parents' details, of course.


Ah, I rely on the kindness of strangers once again. ;)

Thanks so much for the offer, but don't be nagging at her. ;)

It's boggling me, think my brain is running out of power.

Just to say, I am going to Bristol in 4 weeks. Unfortunately so far, only on Sunday, but hoping to make it Friday and Saturday too. But my daughter lives in Bristol, and given enough info, I will send her to the records office (know where it is - walking distance from her) to look for anything.

Give me details, will see what can be done.

Margaret