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The Westwood household in 1881 (where was John in 1861?):


John Westwood 59 - brassfounder
Ann Westwood 49
Alice Westwood 22
Edward Henry Westwood (2 months - is it likely he's actually a son?)
William Walters 48
Eliza Walters 46
Mary Alice Walters 8
Annie Sophia Walters 6


Any chance the kids just didn't know their father's name? If the parents were deceased, that wouldn't be unusual in that day.

But Mary Ann married only two years later ...


Have you found marriage and births for that household?

The only Alice Est* I'm seeing is:

Births Mar 1860
HOLTON Alice Esther Aston 6d 264

and not seeing an Alice Westwood of any sort to suit.

Births Mar 1861
WESTWOOD Mary Ann Birmingham 6d 46
WESTWOOD Mary Ann East Birmingham 6d 40

?


And the only possible marriage to suit looks like this one:


Marriages Dec 1860 (>99%)
Brookes Joseph Birmingham 6d 273
? Danks Ann Maria Birmingham 6d 273
Pressdee George Birmingham 6d 273
Prigg Sarah Ann Birmingham 6d 273
Prigg Sarah Jane Birmingham 6d 273
? Westwood William Birmingham 6d 273

I have still had no luck locating mary ann westwood with a father called "william" who is a brass founderer.

Any offers gratefully recieved from anyone and all that may be bored tonight.

thanks
B

You are far from useless Janey.

With a Hop,Skip and a Jump.
There is still the mystery of the westwood branch ,on the maternal side,to sort out!!

Mary ann westwood married Amos webster in 1883.
She was born 1861 birmingham.

On her marriage cert her father is William westwood{brass founderer}
One witness is Alice westwood.

I can only find a Mary ann westwood and Alice ester westwood{1859}with father JOHN,brass founderer,all the williams are doing other jobs and no alice with them.

Oh and after 1861 I followed alice forward to find the husband of ann,father of alice and mary ann.


1861 England Census
about Alice Ester Westwood
Name: Alice Ester Westwood
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Daughter
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Birmm, Warwickshire, England

Civil parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image

Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: Lady Wood
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 81
Household Members:
Name Age
Ann Westwood 29
Alice Ester Westwood 2
Mary Ann Westwood 2 Mo

B
x x x

Well done!

I feel like a useless appendage here, so I'll just wander off clapping with one hand ...

I have the marriage cert of
Robert william farnsworth and elizabeth BREWER.
So it was the other elizabeth on the same page,so much for my powers of deduction.
And I think I have found william farnsworth/brewer 1880 hull

Births Mar 1880 (>99%)
BREWER William Sculcoates 9d 192

True not an August birth but I shall try to get a new crystal ball as well as sending for that BC.

And in 1881??


1881 England Census
about William Bruer
Name: William Bruer
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Nurse Child (Nurse)
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Kingston-Upon-Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address: 12 St James Place
Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Hull
Sub-registration district: Myton
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Ann Johnson 45
William Bruer 1

His mother and uncle william{born sheffield 1858} were in the workhouse in 1871 as parents died 1866 and 67.

Still looking for elizabeth brewer in 1881,and as she says sheffield in 1861 and barton lincs in 1871 it may take a while.
thanks for all your help Janey and mgnv

Thank you mgnv.
Now I see why the service records are included ,even though they are pre ww1.

The NA catalog says of wo363 (the burnt records):
Scope and content: This series contains microfilm copies of the surviving records of service for non commissioned officers and other ranks who served in the 1914-1918 war and did not re-enlist prior to the outbreak of war in 1939. etc
Similarly for wo364:
Scope and content This series consists of microfilm copies of service records of non-commissioned officers and other ranks who were discharged from the Army and claimed disability pensions for war service between 1914 and 1920 and did not re-enlist prior to the outbreak of the Second World War. The records are unlikely to contain information on individuals who did not claim a war pension. etc
[Both these series exclude officers, and exclude soldiers of the household cavalry & guards regiments. I can't check Ancestry, but I think indexing is not complete for either series. Maybe it's substantially complete for wo364, but it would appear the records for denied pensions haven't been tackled yet.]

Anyway, it's clear these are the entire service/pension records of WW1 soldiers who weren't in WW2, so any 1901 service should be there.


Re nok - in the examples I've seen, which are mostly Ontario, or the 4 western provinces, this is always the wife if married, but if single, I've seen a maybe 2-1 preference for naming the mother when both parents are available; after that, it's usually siblings. Now, admitedly, these people, although mostly either UK born or having a UK born parent, are liable to somewhat behave differently from Englishmen, especially as a substantial minority have their UK origin outside England. I haven't had so much experience matching English WW1 records with the 1911 census, as England has a 100 y closure, not a 92 y one, so their preceding census has only recently come online (and then there's no free images except in Ireland).

The later Canadian censuses either ask date of birth or month and year of birth. I'ld guess there's just as much lying re age on the Canadian censuses as on the English ones - maybe more: new country, new age. Anyway, they nearly always do not lie about the day of the year, just the year. There was substantial lying re dob on Canadian WW1 attestation papers. Canada's only surviving CEF member was an underage soldier who lied about his age, but, by 1917 the 1916 casualty lists were known, and underage soldiers were no longer sent overseas, and those who were training in England, like this guy, were kept there, and not sent to France.

Back tomorrow,bed is shouting for me.

Thank you for Pm ing.

So why put down his brother as next of kin as well?

Grrr ,so many questions that no answers will be given for...........

Done - PMed mgnv.

Re the mother/brother thing -- I think it was MargaretManson pointed out to me a while back that mother was always listed as next of kin, even if father was living. I'd been assuming it meant mother was widowed. (It hadn't occurred to me because the only WWI enrolee in my family did give his father, good old Ernest you-know-who/what -- but in that case, the mother actually was deceased.)

The other thing is ,
why does he say that his mother elizabeth and brother robert farnsworth are his next of kin on the 1901 papers and not
Father robert and mother Elizabeth.

Robert william farnsworth was still alive then.

Then on his marriage cert name his father as robert william farnsworth...
for respecability????

I dont believe that robert william farnsworth is his father,but would like to be persuaded to it as it would make things easier.

Who is mgnv?,I have seen the moniker but never been on same thread.
Would they be able to help clear a few things up on this army stuff?
If so I will look for them and send a pleading PM.
Unless you have them in your contacts list?xxxx

I'm not doubting they're all the guy! I'm just confused by the 1901 thingy being in the WWI database. Maybe somebody did suss him and connect them up?

Also the signatures are all the same.
service record,pension record and 1911 census.
The only thing on the pension record is he has tried to disguise his signature on enlistment and has blue eyes,and someone has put down that he had an arrow tattoo instead of a dagger,which then changes to a dagger on discharge,as per the service records description of the tattoos.
Which makes me believe he knew the enlistment officer and he was helping to try and get william past his earlier "medically unfit"discharge in 1904.
but on his discharge 2 months later he has hazel eyes and his signature is clearly the same as on 1911 and service records.

Nor did I ,but they are definately the same man(tattoos an all}
Even though the year and place of birth are different.
The 1884 liverpool birth one has him married to the right woman,with the right children as per 1911 census where he was born in hull and their marriage cert says he was age 25 in 1905.

I'm not good with army stuff either ... but I'm pretty sure WWI was 1914-1918. ;)

That's why I find it confusing that this index:

British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920

has this record:

"His ww1 service records dated 1-8-1901"

The Ancestry record says "Document Year: 1901".

Is this all because his WWI records show his 1901 enrolment?

Except he was discharged 1904.

And his actual WWI records are under a different number, showing a different DOB.

That's where I'm lost.

Could indeed by the same guy, but I don't understand what that 1901 record is and why it's lumped in with WWI records.


Maybe one of the military-savvy people will happen by. If not, try giving mgnv a shout, maybe.

His ww1 service records dated 1-8-1901 say that he was in

5th battalion lancs reg ,and still serving there when signing up with the manchester reg{I think}
Im not good at army stuff.

Sorry about the 1901 spelling,I forgot,
well I cant be perfect all the time.

So now I have to get the marshall one as well???????????
After I get mothers marrige then, for the checking ref.

There might be some possibility of confusion.

Farnsworth, W. 29560, Trooper 15th Coy., 5th Bn. I.Y.

That's the 15th company, 5th Northumberland battalion, of the Imperial Yeomanry -- which was the militia, in the Anglo-Boer war.

Were there two WFs?


Edit - there were actually a number of William FARNWORTHs born c1880, so that one in the 1901 might not be him. (None born in Yorkshire though, true.)

I will send for it after I have his mothers marriage cert {which should arrive in the next few days}to be sure of her maiden name for checking ref.