Find Ancestors

I have a henry showman living in neath, german subject. Can anyone help me find out how to trace when he came into this country. His father was Hermunn. I have henry living in neath in 1871 age 26, and marrying mary ann green in 5/6/1889. thanks very much
marlene

Showman doesn't sound at all German - sure it's not Schumann?

Interesting!!!!


This is Henry SHOWMAN on the 1881 Census, with wife Mary Ann ....... but he's born in Holland, Essex


1881 Census

Name: Henry Showman
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Holland, Essex, England

Civil parish: Neath
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales

Street Address: 8 Castle Street
Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: General Labourer

Registration district: Neath
Sub-registration district: Neath

Henry Showman 38
Mary Ann Showman 39 b.ca 1842, Barnstaple, Devon
Mary Green 9 b.ca 1872, Neath, Step-daughter
William Green 13 b.ca 1868, Neath, Step-son
Rose Showman 7 b.ca 1874, Neath, Daughter
Emily Showman 4 b.ca 1877, Neath, Daughter
James Brown 50 Boarder

The image says very clearly Holland, but the word before it has a big black mark scored through it and it is very difficult to tell whether it does actually say Essex!



--------------

and this is him in 1901


1901 Census

Name: Henry Showman
Age in 1901: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: Deu German Subject

Civil parish: Neath
Ecclesiastical parish: Llantwit and Neath
Town: Neath
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales

Registration district: Neath
Sub-registration district: Neath

John Davies 30
Emily Davies 24
Susanah Davies 2
Irene Tugela Davies 1 month
Henry Showman 60 Ostler at hotel


On the image, it does say German subject, born Germany, language English



I haven't yet found him on 1881 or 1891, nor have I found his marriage ......... at least not under Showman!




sylvia

here is Emily in 1891 ..... she is a General Servant (daughter is a mis-transcription)


1891 Census

Name: Emily Showman
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Daughter <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< should be Servant
Father's Name: John V
Mother's Name: Frances
Gender: Female
Where born: Neath, Glamorgan, Wales

Civil parish: Dyffryn Clydach
Ecclesiastical parish: Skewen
Town: Dyffryn Clydach
County/Island: Glamorgan
Country: Wales

Registration district: Neath
Sub-registration district: Cadoxton

John V Jenkins 48
Frances Jenkins 39
William E Jenkins 12
Herbert G Sims 19
Sarah Jenkins 79
Emily Showman 14 General Domestic Servant





I'm still trying to find Henry!!!!



sylvia

Daughter Emily's birth:

Births Dec 1877
Green Emily Showman Neath 11a 598

Looks like they weren't married. ;)


But was Green the birth surname or first married surname of Mary Ann?


Other births:

Births Jun 1873
GREEN Mary Showman Neath 11a 564

Births Mar 1882
Green Henry Showman Neath 11a 578

Not seeing Rose.


This is the common pattern for naming children of unmarried parents, of course: father's surname becomes a middle name.

Oops, I missed the date Marlene gave for the marriage.


Marriages Jun 1889
Green Mary Ann Neath 11a 1063
Shormrnn Henry Neath 11a 1063
Shormrun Henry Neath 11a 1063

Hmm.

Checked the image, and it is indeed entered twice in the index, presumably because the transcriber couldn't read the original.

One is SHORMRNN, and the other is SHORMRUN, looks like to me.

Marlene, do you have the certificate? That would seem to be the best chance of getting an accurate surname.


Likely Mary Ann was still married to a first husband up to then.

Here's an interesting household in 1891.

Name: Adam Scherman
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Eliza
Where born: Preußen
Occupation: Skin Dyer (Fur)

Civil parish: St George in The East

Adam Scherman 44
Eliza Scherman 44
H G Lubell 28
Herman Scheuermann 11
Price Brozowski 23
William Ramer 21
Gustav Gehchar 28
Hugh Newmann 25
Adolf Barghusen 20
St Talkowski 28

Name: Herman Scheuermann
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Adam
Mother's Name: Eliza
Where born: St George in The East, London, England


Interesting, I thought, because this Adam, born in Germany, is of an age to be a brother of our Henry, and has a son hamed Herman, our Henry's father's name.

Actually, I'm not entirely convinced the name is Adam, and of course the surname is the same for him and his son. I think Scheuermann is the best reading. Showman would be a predictable anglicization.


No, Adam it is:

Marriages Dec 1874
Koch Eva Whitechapel 1c 886
Mayer Johann Whitechapel 1c 886
Scheuermann Adam Whitechapel 1c 886
Scheukrmann Adam Whitechapel 1c 886
ZABEL Elisabeth Whitechapel 1c 886
Zabel Elizabeth Whitechapel 1c 886


The "Lubell" in the household above is Zabell, a child of Eliza's prior to the marriage it would seem.

There are loads of Heinrich Scheuermann / Schuermann-s in the IGI, but none with father Hermann.

Actually, there are loads of Scheuermann-s in the censuses.

In the GRO, I searched for Herm* Sch*n, wondering whether Hermann had died in England/Wales, and ran across other possible variations on the spelling:

Scheurmann
Schwarmann
Schwermann
Schurmann

and possibly
SCHNURMANN
Shermann
Shauermann
Shanermann (likely a mistranscription of Shauermann)
Scharmann
Schermann
Scheirmann
SCHEAERMANN

This is a very complicated side of my family. My grandmother was Irene Tugela Davies. Her parents were John and emily davies formerly green.I have emily's birth certificate stating parents john and mary ann green formerly doudle. Her name on the birth cert IN 1877 is Emily Showman Green. I have a census for my grandmother stating that Henry Showman, german subject age 60, is living as a boarder with John and Emily in 1901.
John green married mary ann doudle in 1864. I also have a marriage cert for Henry Shormurun and mary ann green (widow) in 1889 both marriages in Neath. The only problem is.... the ages on both marriages do not tie up, and mary ann doudles father was James Doudle on her marriage cert to John Green. On the marriage to Henry Shormurun, mary ann greens father is Robert Powell deceased. I have various census that lead me to believe mary ann had children with Henry when she was married to John, as Emily is shown as Henrys daughter on one census with other children as Step children (GREENS). Very confusing I know.
I know when Henry and Mary ann died, but cannot find any reference to what happened to John Green. I presume both mary anns are the same person, but as there are 2 fathers quoted im not so sure.
thanks for your help
marlene

A couple of us did spend some time on your question. Any thoughts?

Also, it would definitely have been helpful to provide all that info in the first place.

Births Mar 1843
Dowdle Mary Ann Barnstaple 10 39

?


And for ref:

Marriages Sep 1864
Dowdle Mary Ann Neath 11a 719
Green John Neath 11a 719


Dowdle, not Doudle.

This looks like the best bet for Mary Ann in the early censuses:


1851

Name: Mary Dowdle
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Loxhore, Devon, England

Civil parish: Arlington
County/Island: Devon
Registration district: Barnstaple

Charles Sumerficto 31 [it says Sumerfield]
Grace Sumerficto 34
Elizabeth Sumerficto 3
Susan Sumerficto 10 Mo
Jane Dowdle 72 - visitor
Mary Dowdle 8


Marriages Mar 1844
DOWDLE Grace Barnstaple 10 49
SUMMERFIELD Charles Barnstaple 10 49


I wonder whether Grace was Mary Ann's mother - i.e. MA's mother was unmarried and the various fathers on the marriage certificates are inventions (MA's birth cert will say):


1841

Name: Grace Dowdal
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Where born: Devon, England

Civil parish: Loxhore
County/Island: Devon
Registration district: Barnstaple

Thomas Dowdal 55
Jane Dowdal 60
Grace Dowdal 20
Ann Dowdal 20


Is it possible that the "Powell" on the second marriage certificate is actually something like "Dowell"?


1861

Name: M A Dowdle
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Pauper
Where born: Loxhore, Devon, England

Civil parish: Barnstaple
County/Island: Devon
Registration district: Barnstaple
ED, institution, or vessel: Barnstaple Union Workhouse

M A Dowdle 18
M J Dowdle 2 Mo


Possible the death of the daughter -- the entry actually says Torrington (I have submitted a correction to FreeBMD):

Deaths Dec 1865
Dowdle Mary Jane xFaringdonx 2c 335

Janey


looks good!


and that suggestion of Powell being Dowell is a possibility.


I'm leaving it until we hear more from Marlene.



sylvia

sorry everyone, i've been working a lot this week and havent had time to look at my threads very much. Appreciate all your help though. Janey, yes Green was mary anns first marriage, before Henry, although i cannot find any record of him living with her on any census. He seems to be living with his parents in 1871, but condition married. No record of his family though.
I have marriage cert for Henry Shormurun and mary ann green, which states his father as Hermonn. I thought as she is widow on the marriage cert then she is the same mary ann who married john green. But on this certificate ,her father is robert Powell. On the marriage cert to john green her father is james Doudle. There was a mary ann powell in Neath, born 1854, but have not been able to find out about her yet. There are quite a few mary ann doudle, dowdle etc, so it is very confusing trying to find mine.

Ann, yes he was probable shaumann or maybe schoman originally.

Sylvia, yes this birth place has confused me, but the children are the same so it must be him. Dont know why Holland Essex is there though, as he was definately a german subject.

not sure about the mary Dowdle born in Luxore, I found a john and ann Dourdle with a daughter mary ann in barnstable, but there seems to be a few mary anns with slightly different surnames. Its very confusing.
Again thanks all for your input.
regards
marlene

You seem to be getting stuck on some odd bits and not looking for a big picture, Marlene, and not seeming to want to follow up on anything.

For one thing, the Green-Dowdle marriage really is DOWDLE in the index. Is it something else -- DOUDLE -- on the marriage certificate? What about the father's name on that certificate -- is it definitely DOUDLE?

The Mary Ann Dowdle whose birth was registered in 1843 is an excellent match for your Mary Ann, in terms of age, place of birth and surname (i.e. matches the MAD who married Green).

A Mary Ann (Powell) born in 1854 would be no match at all for yours, who was 39ish in 1881. And yours says, in 1881, that she was born in Barnstaple, Devon.

(Keep in mind that as time and distance grew between birth and census, people's birthplaces often got fuzzy. Nobody in Neath would know Loxhore, which was in Barnstaple district, but the enumerator would likely have heard of Barnstaple.)

Why not get that 1843 birth certificate and see what it says?

As for Henry, do you have access to full UK Ancestry?

If you search the index of UK Incoming Passenger Lists, there are Scheuermann-s and the like, and even a couple of Showman-s -- a Harry and a Mr. H that I see on a quick search. (There is even a Countess Sheuermann.)

Unfortunately I don't have that full access, so I can't see years and birthdates. You might want to look there, to see whether you might find your Henry entering the UK.

I have john green and mary ann Doudles marriage cert, her father is James Doudle, carpenter.
My problem is.... I have found a mary ann Dowdle in Little Colan, cornwall, parents James and Jane, father from Devon.
Mary ann Dourdle born abt 1839 from Barnstable, parents John and Ann,
and your mary ann Dowdle also could fit, but It clearly states her father as James though on her marriage cert. I dont want to follow the wrong path.

Unfortunately I do not have access to ancestry so I have to visit the library to access info about Henry Showman. As my great grandmother Emily was emily showman Green on her birth cert, I think Henry was her father not John Green, although john is quoted as her father on the birth cert. Mary ann, her mother, later married Henry, so she must have had 2 children by Henry when married to John. I have no idea what happened to John though as I cannot find a record of his death in Neath where they lived.
regards
marlene

You have to follow a path some distance before you know whether it's the wrong one!


I don't understand this:

"I have john green and mary ann Doudles marriage cert, her father is James Doudle, carpenter."

I keep pointing out that the GRO index says DOWDLE (that is what it says in the GRO index), and you keep saying DOUDLE and not explaining why!!!

If she was DOWDLE, then her father was too -- allowing for all the spelling variations that would have occurred in documents in that era.


The Mary Ann Dowdle in Cornwall in 1861 was not born in Devon, she was born in Cornwall. Again, that could be a reporting error, but it's what it says, and your Mary Ann said she was born in Barnstaple.

And that James is an agricultural labourer, not a carpenter.


The most logical - and very common - explanation for the situation is that Mary Ann's mother was not married, and whoever James Dowdle or Robert Powerll were, they were not her father. That is, her father could have been James Somebody, or Robert Somebody, for instance, but she was registered under her mother's surname.

Why not order the 1843 birth certificate and find out whether you can rule that MAD *out*?

As I said on my last message, I have John Green and mary ann Doudle's marriage cert, aand Emily showman Greens birth cert which both show the spelling Doudle on them. This may be a spelling mistake, and may well be Dowdle. There are quite a few different spellings, Dowdle, Doudle, Durdle, Dowdell etc unfortunately.

My main problem is, my gt gt grandmother was a mary ann Doudle definately, her first husband John Green is on my gt grandmother Emilys birth cert as father. She has the name emily showman Green on the birth cert. I have a 1901 census showing Henry Showman widowed, living with emily and her husband and children as a boarder. Henry died in 1907, mary ann died 1900.

A mary ann married Henry in 1889. I presumed they were both the same woman, but I was expecting her father to be James Doudle, having the father Robert Powell (deceased) on her marriage cert has confused me. I have found 3 births for mary ann Powell in Neath, 1847, 1851, and 1854. I will be checking them at our local records office next week to rule them out. The children on both marriages are almost the same, so they must be the same woman.

Another confusing issue is, on her first marriage in 1864, she is 23, on her second marriage cert in 1889 she is 35. As you can see, this does not add up. Henrys age is also questionable as he is also 38 in 1881, but 35 in 1889 on the marriage cert. ....In 1871, Henry is unmarried. In 1881 wales census, he is married to mary ann. They must have pretended to be married, as the marriage cert says 1889, and also lied about their ages for some reason. Im sorry this has been very confusing to you, there are so many things that do not add up unfortunately.

I will order the birth cert for your mary ann dowdle, but not sure how this will conffirm anything for me. I have a census for the workhouse in Somerton Somerset where a mary ann Doudle, spelt with a u age 18 and her child age 2months are living. She was from Luxore, so it may be your mary ann. How would she have moved to Neath in Wales from there.

I am beginning to think I will never solve this!!!! Trouble is, the more complicated it gets the more determined I am to find the truth.

re my last message, the workhouse where mary ann and her child lived was not Somerton, my mistake. I read domestic and thought it said Somerton, sorry for mistake, I really need to wear my glasses when trying to read census.