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not much luck with Henry Showman or schoman in passenger lists. Found a Hermann Schoman from radelubbe in germany, but there was no info or age. Do you know if I can look him up anywhere? Are there any sites for germany. There are LOADS of Schomans but no Henry or Heinrich.
Would you have any idea if records of people moving into or out of an area are kept. I found a henry shuman born abt 1844 from germany, living lancashire, liverpool, st george, but he died 1885 in lancashire so not him.
Maybe our local records office in Neath will have a record of henry moving into the area.

i CANNOT SEEM TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED TO JOHN GREEN. THE ONLY ONE WHO DIED IN NEATH WAS IN 1893 AGE 45, BUT IT OBVIOUSLY CANNOT BE HIM. mAYBE HE MOVED AWAY. iT WOULD BE NICE TO KNOW FOR SURE IF MARY ANN WAS DEFINATELY A WIDOW AS QUOTED IN HER MARRIAGE TO HENRY.

THERE ARE SCHOMANS IN THE INCOMING PASSENGER LISTS, BUT ITS FROM 1878-1960, TOO LATE FOR HENRY. i AM GOING TO MY LOCAL LIBRARY WHERE ANCESTRY IS FREE THIS MORNING. iS IT POSSIBLE TO GO BACK FURTHUR WITH UK INCOMING PASSENGER LISTS?

yes, I thought about Deutch and Dutch too , but it said Holland Essex England, and there is a Holland on Sea in Essex. In the 1891 census Henry Showman was born looks like France!! living with mary ann, and children Rosanna age 16 and Henry age 9.

To sum up, Henry Schoman boarding at age 26 in 1871

Mary ann Doudle married John green in 1864.

, 1881 Henry showman with mary ann, wife, and chil;dren rose showman, henry green, william green, and emily showman.

1891 Henry Shewman wife mary ann, dau rosena age 16, son henry age 9.

1901 Henry Showman age 60 and a widower, boarding with emily and her husband john davies.Henry died 1907, mary ann 1900. both in neath.

Before 1871 I have no record of Henry Showman.

Whoa. Who is this?? in 1871 --

Name: Mary A Dowdle
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Where born: Arlington, Devon, England**

Civil parish: Neath
Town: Neath
County/Island: Glamorgan

William Dowdle 38 - born Arlington
Elizabeth Dowdle 36 - Trentishoe, Devon
Mary A Dowdle 12
Elizabeth Dowdle 10
Martha Dowdle 1
Simon Dowdle 83


Not your Mary Ann, obviously, from the age.

But she is in Neath, and she was born in Arlington, Devon -- which is where the Mary Dowdle of my interest was in 1851, with her grandmother (I am assuming) Jane Dowdle, visiting Jane's daughter Grace Dowdle Summerfield.

Arlington and Loxhore are less than 2 miles apart.

So here we have Dowdles from Arlington living in Neath in 1871.

Once again, I'm seeing a connection leading to the Mary Ann Dowdle from Loxhore!

Now, for Henry. I keep meaning to mention that in German, the word for German is "Deutsch". This could possibly have been confused by an enumerator, or Henry, or another family member, with "Dutch", with the result that his birthplace is given as Holland.

Can you summarize what you do know?

Where he was in each census where you have him, and what his age, occupation and place of birth were in each census.

What his age and occupation were on the marriage certificate.

I still think you need to closely review the Ancestry index of arrivals in the UK to see whether anyone who looks like him is there.


Oh wait, I'd never found him in 1871 -- and you never mentioned what his name was given as that year -- and really, these things are so important.

Name: Henry Schoman
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Germany
Occupation: labourer in stone quarry
Condition as to marriage: unmarried

Civil parish: Cadoxton
Town: Coedfrane and Skewen
County/Island: Glamorgan


I mean, here we are guessing what Showman might have really been, and there's a great big hint.

Just to summarize. ;)


I agree that Showman absolutely is the father of all Green children with middle name Showman.

Emily was called Showman in the censuses because her parents were living together as husband and wife and presenting themselves publicly as such, and because she (unlike the older Green children) was in fact Showman's child.

She married as Green because that was her "legal" name.

And I absolutely agree with being cautious, and never adopting anybody else's information unless it is verifiable or at least probably to the point of virtual certainty.

(I would have wasted the last three years pursuing completely unrelated people if I had adopted the people shown in a tree here at GR as my grx2 grandparents -- the GR member who is very distantly related by marriage had just picked a random couple with the same given names, in the same place, and called them the parents of my gr-grandfather!)

I'm not saying Mary Dowdle 1843 is yours. I'm saying you need to investigate her to find out who she was, and whether she is a match, or not a match, for yours in any way. You need to know about her. That is how this all works. The answers aren't going to come by osmosis, the info has to be got and the pondering done.

By the time you get back 150 years, it would be very unusual *not* to encounter a twist like this in your tree! Especially one relating to unmarried parents. It took me months to figure out who my gr-grfather born in 1851 was -- here, have a look, and you'll get a feel for what I went through, and why I will never have proof positive of who he was:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=976217
"Ernest Monck - Australia sojourn c 1885-1895"

The thread tells the tale in kind of reverse order, unfortunately, but it comes down to: my gr-grfather's surname was completely fake, and his real name was one my mother and her family had never heard of. I only figured this out by adding up coincidences and matching up snatches of stories, but they all added up and matched up so perfectly that I am left with no doubt at all.

Yes, I think this is John Green in 1871 census, he is a platelayer on Emily Greens marriage to John Davies, although down as a labourer on his marriage cert with mary ann. Cannot find record of him after this census though. Not sure when and where he died.

I will order the birth cert for mary ann Dowdle, to see if any connection can be found. Hopefully, something will 'click' Thanks for all your help in trying to track mary ann down. I know I am probably being too cautious, but in my research with another side of my family, I found many errors with other family members who gave me info they thought was correct. All info on my tree has personally been checked via record offices by me. It can be so easy to follow the wrong direction.

I presume Henry Showman is my gt grandmothers real father, so John Green is not the path to follow, although on Emilys marriage cert, she has dropped Showman and used Green. Henry is even harder to track down though, I suspect. German subject, WHERE DO I START!! There are so many possible variations of his name.

I really do appreciate all your help, in what has been the most confusing side of my family so far. Mary ann seems to have led an eventful life!!

And this is John Green in 1871? (You have his occupation and father's name, from the marriage certificate, but you haven't said, so I'll assume.)

Name: John Green
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Eliza
Where born: Ashbury, Berkshire, England
Occupation: Platelayer
Condition as to marriage: Married

Civil parish: Neath

William Green 71
Eliza Green 47
John Green 26
Mary Green 20
Hannah Green 19
David Green 16
Henry Green 14
Elizabeth Green 11
William Green 9
Albert Green 6
Fredk Green 4
Sarah Jane Green 2

Note that the Mary Ann Dowdle in the 1851 census is with Jane Dowdle, evidently her grandmother, and visiting Jane's daughter Grace. Thomas and Jane Dowdle had no sons in the 1841 census, i.e. that Mary Ann Dowdle, if she was Jane's granddaughter, had to be the daughter of Jane's daughter.


For info, this is Grace Dowdle (1841) Summerfield (1851):

GRACE DOWDLE
Christening: 31 AUG 1817 Bratton Fleming, Devon, England
Father: THOMAS DOWDLE
Mother: JANE
Batch No.: C050401


The other birth in the IGI with the same parents:

ANN DOWDLE
Christening: 19 SEP 1816 Bratton Fleming, Devon, England


And this is the child MJ Dowdle in the workhouse in the 1861 census:

Births Mar 1861
DOWDLE Mary Jane Barnstaple 5b 471

First, the MAD in the workhouse in 1861 - that's the one I put in the thread here, on page 1. MA with child MJ, I believe. She would almost certainly be the Mary Ann Dowdle in 1851 who, with her grandmother Jane Dowdle, is visiting Grade Dowdle Summerfield (who shows as Summerwill in the next census).

Getting the 1843 Mary Ann Dowdle birth certificate would tell you who that Mary Ann's parents were!

If her father was neither Robert nor James Dowdle, but, say, Theodore Dowdle, it would look like she probably was not your MAD. If no father was listed, her mother would be the Dowdle, and if that MAD married, she might have made up a father for her certificate.

You are just looking at this from the perspective of everybody doing everything by the social rules! Many, many people did not.

Of course Mary Ann and Henry were living together without being married. One or both of them was married to someone else.

The middle name "Showman" was Henry's way of acknowledging he was the father of those children. They are the children also named as Showman in the census. He could not be put as father on the birth record because the mother was married to someone else.

Mary Ann's first husband, Mr. Green, is shown as married and living with his parents when she is living with Henry. They were estranged, for whatever reason. Perhaps she ran off with Henry. Perhaps Mr. Green was a brute. Perhaps he was ill and unable to support the family.

One doesn't usually have any way of knowing the answer, but the tale itself is very very common. I have a set of grx2 grandparents who married at the age of 45, about 7 years after their last child was born, and 20 years after their first. Obviously, one of them was married before (even though both said they weren't, on their certificate).

Once the estranged spouse died, the couple would be free to marry. In many cases, that didn't happen, if the estranged spouse outlived one of them, or if they too separated.

I'm sorry, but I think it's absurd to go tracking down Mary Ann Powells who don't match your Mary Ann's specs (date and place of birth) remotely, when there is a Mary Ann Dowdle available who matches them virtually to a T. Your Mary Ann wasn't named Powell, according to the marriage to Mr. Green (assuming that is her, which it certainly seems to be), and according to her children's birth certificates.

This is her death?

Deaths Mar 1900
Showman Mary Ann 59 Neath 11a 587

That puts her born 1840-41. With allowances still having to be made for the accuracy of the memory/knowledge of whoever the informant was.

1891

Name: Mary Ann Shewman
Age: 50
>> Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Henry
>> Where born: Devon, England

Civil parish: Neath

Henry Shewman 55
Mary Ann Shewman 50
Rosena Shewman 16
Henry Shewman 9
James Brown 64 (boarder)


No indication anywhere ever that she was born anywhere other than the Barnstaple area, Devon.

re my last message, the workhouse where mary ann and her child lived was not Somerton, my mistake. I read domestic and thought it said Somerton, sorry for mistake, I really need to wear my glasses when trying to read census.

As I said on my last message, I have John Green and mary ann Doudle's marriage cert, aand Emily showman Greens birth cert which both show the spelling Doudle on them. This may be a spelling mistake, and may well be Dowdle. There are quite a few different spellings, Dowdle, Doudle, Durdle, Dowdell etc unfortunately.

My main problem is, my gt gt grandmother was a mary ann Doudle definately, her first husband John Green is on my gt grandmother Emilys birth cert as father. She has the name emily showman Green on the birth cert. I have a 1901 census showing Henry Showman widowed, living with emily and her husband and children as a boarder. Henry died in 1907, mary ann died 1900.

A mary ann married Henry in 1889. I presumed they were both the same woman, but I was expecting her father to be James Doudle, having the father Robert Powell (deceased) on her marriage cert has confused me. I have found 3 births for mary ann Powell in Neath, 1847, 1851, and 1854. I will be checking them at our local records office next week to rule them out. The children on both marriages are almost the same, so they must be the same woman.

Another confusing issue is, on her first marriage in 1864, she is 23, on her second marriage cert in 1889 she is 35. As you can see, this does not add up. Henrys age is also questionable as he is also 38 in 1881, but 35 in 1889 on the marriage cert. ....In 1871, Henry is unmarried. In 1881 wales census, he is married to mary ann. They must have pretended to be married, as the marriage cert says 1889, and also lied about their ages for some reason. Im sorry this has been very confusing to you, there are so many things that do not add up unfortunately.

I will order the birth cert for your mary ann dowdle, but not sure how this will conffirm anything for me. I have a census for the workhouse in Somerton Somerset where a mary ann Doudle, spelt with a u age 18 and her child age 2months are living. She was from Luxore, so it may be your mary ann. How would she have moved to Neath in Wales from there.

I am beginning to think I will never solve this!!!! Trouble is, the more complicated it gets the more determined I am to find the truth.

You have to follow a path some distance before you know whether it's the wrong one!


I don't understand this:

"I have john green and mary ann Doudles marriage cert, her father is James Doudle, carpenter."

I keep pointing out that the GRO index says DOWDLE (that is what it says in the GRO index), and you keep saying DOUDLE and not explaining why!!!

If she was DOWDLE, then her father was too -- allowing for all the spelling variations that would have occurred in documents in that era.


The Mary Ann Dowdle in Cornwall in 1861 was not born in Devon, she was born in Cornwall. Again, that could be a reporting error, but it's what it says, and your Mary Ann said she was born in Barnstaple.

And that James is an agricultural labourer, not a carpenter.


The most logical - and very common - explanation for the situation is that Mary Ann's mother was not married, and whoever James Dowdle or Robert Powerll were, they were not her father. That is, her father could have been James Somebody, or Robert Somebody, for instance, but she was registered under her mother's surname.

Why not order the 1843 birth certificate and find out whether you can rule that MAD *out*?

I have john green and mary ann Doudles marriage cert, her father is James Doudle, carpenter.
My problem is.... I have found a mary ann Dowdle in Little Colan, cornwall, parents James and Jane, father from Devon.
Mary ann Dourdle born abt 1839 from Barnstable, parents John and Ann,
and your mary ann Dowdle also could fit, but It clearly states her father as James though on her marriage cert. I dont want to follow the wrong path.

Unfortunately I do not have access to ancestry so I have to visit the library to access info about Henry Showman. As my great grandmother Emily was emily showman Green on her birth cert, I think Henry was her father not John Green, although john is quoted as her father on the birth cert. Mary ann, her mother, later married Henry, so she must have had 2 children by Henry when married to John. I have no idea what happened to John though as I cannot find a record of his death in Neath where they lived.
regards
marlene

You seem to be getting stuck on some odd bits and not looking for a big picture, Marlene, and not seeming to want to follow up on anything.

For one thing, the Green-Dowdle marriage really is DOWDLE in the index. Is it something else -- DOUDLE -- on the marriage certificate? What about the father's name on that certificate -- is it definitely DOUDLE?

The Mary Ann Dowdle whose birth was registered in 1843 is an excellent match for your Mary Ann, in terms of age, place of birth and surname (i.e. matches the MAD who married Green).

A Mary Ann (Powell) born in 1854 would be no match at all for yours, who was 39ish in 1881. And yours says, in 1881, that she was born in Barnstaple, Devon.

(Keep in mind that as time and distance grew between birth and census, people's birthplaces often got fuzzy. Nobody in Neath would know Loxhore, which was in Barnstaple district, but the enumerator would likely have heard of Barnstaple.)

Why not get that 1843 birth certificate and see what it says?

As for Henry, do you have access to full UK Ancestry?

If you search the index of UK Incoming Passenger Lists, there are Scheuermann-s and the like, and even a couple of Showman-s -- a Harry and a Mr. H that I see on a quick search. (There is even a Countess Sheuermann.)

Unfortunately I don't have that full access, so I can't see years and birthdates. You might want to look there, to see whether you might find your Henry entering the UK.

sorry everyone, i've been working a lot this week and havent had time to look at my threads very much. Appreciate all your help though. Janey, yes Green was mary anns first marriage, before Henry, although i cannot find any record of him living with her on any census. He seems to be living with his parents in 1871, but condition married. No record of his family though.
I have marriage cert for Henry Shormurun and mary ann green, which states his father as Hermonn. I thought as she is widow on the marriage cert then she is the same mary ann who married john green. But on this certificate ,her father is robert Powell. On the marriage cert to john green her father is james Doudle. There was a mary ann powell in Neath, born 1854, but have not been able to find out about her yet. There are quite a few mary ann doudle, dowdle etc, so it is very confusing trying to find mine.

Ann, yes he was probable shaumann or maybe schoman originally.

Sylvia, yes this birth place has confused me, but the children are the same so it must be him. Dont know why Holland Essex is there though, as he was definately a german subject.

not sure about the mary Dowdle born in Luxore, I found a john and ann Dourdle with a daughter mary ann in barnstable, but there seems to be a few mary anns with slightly different surnames. Its very confusing.
Again thanks all for your input.
regards
marlene

Janey


looks good!


and that suggestion of Powell being Dowell is a possibility.


I'm leaving it until we hear more from Marlene.



sylvia

This looks like the best bet for Mary Ann in the early censuses:


1851

Name: Mary Dowdle
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Loxhore, Devon, England

Civil parish: Arlington
County/Island: Devon
Registration district: Barnstaple

Charles Sumerficto 31 [it says Sumerfield]
Grace Sumerficto 34
Elizabeth Sumerficto 3
Susan Sumerficto 10 Mo
Jane Dowdle 72 - visitor
Mary Dowdle 8


Marriages Mar 1844
DOWDLE Grace Barnstaple 10 49
SUMMERFIELD Charles Barnstaple 10 49


I wonder whether Grace was Mary Ann's mother - i.e. MA's mother was unmarried and the various fathers on the marriage certificates are inventions (MA's birth cert will say):


1841

Name: Grace Dowdal
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Where born: Devon, England

Civil parish: Loxhore
County/Island: Devon
Registration district: Barnstaple

Thomas Dowdal 55
Jane Dowdal 60
Grace Dowdal 20
Ann Dowdal 20


Is it possible that the "Powell" on the second marriage certificate is actually something like "Dowell"?


1861

Name: M A Dowdle
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Pauper
Where born: Loxhore, Devon, England

Civil parish: Barnstaple
County/Island: Devon
Registration district: Barnstaple
ED, institution, or vessel: Barnstaple Union Workhouse

M A Dowdle 18
M J Dowdle 2 Mo


Possible the death of the daughter -- the entry actually says Torrington (I have submitted a correction to FreeBMD):

Deaths Dec 1865
Dowdle Mary Jane xFaringdonx 2c 335

Births Mar 1843
Dowdle Mary Ann Barnstaple 10 39

?


And for ref:

Marriages Sep 1864
Dowdle Mary Ann Neath 11a 719
Green John Neath 11a 719


Dowdle, not Doudle.

A couple of us did spend some time on your question. Any thoughts?

Also, it would definitely have been helpful to provide all that info in the first place.