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Pleased to hear how well you have done - good on you, going to that church. Some people "research" for years and never leave their computer.

Hi Margaret,

Thanks for the info regarding Margaret and marriage to James Tomkins.
Went to the church where they were married and the priest brought out the original record book for me to look at. It was quite amazing.
This was James Tomkins second marriage. His first wife died in 1888, and it looks like Margaret became his "housekeeper" before getting married to him. Hence child of one month old in the 1891 census !!

I have her (widowed) located in the 1911 census living with her daughter Mary at, 21 Albert Street, Islington.

Mary goes to Canada and marries (I have that info). I am wondering if
Margaret goes there too.

Its what happened to her after 1911 that I am particularly interested in.

None of the family (still alive) seem to know anything about her later life.
She appears to be the black sheep of the family.

Regards
Stuart

1881 census: (James with first wife)
Can't make out street name, Soho
James Tomkins, head, 28, bootmaker, born Ireland
Ellen, wife, 25
pauline, dau, 5
Ellen, dau, 4
James, son, 2
John, son, 11 months
Wife & children born Not Known, Middlesex.

I don't know! What do you think? That marriage registration says they were married March quarter 1891, census was done 5 April. A 1 month old daughter?
1891 census
42 Saville St., Marylebone, London
James Tomkins, head, 38, bootmaker, born Ireland
Margaret, wife, 22, born London
Pauline, dau, 15, dressmaker, born "
Ellen, dau, 14, born Soho
Elizabeth, dau, 6, born '
Josephine, dau, 2, born St. James
Louisa, dau, 1 month, born Marylebone

Possible?
1901 census
45 Harrison St., St. Pancras, London
James Tompkins, head, 47, bootmaker, born Limerick, Ireland
Margaret, wife, 32, born Holborn
Edward, son, 18, clerk, born Soho
Elizabeth, dau, 16, book folder, born "
Mary, dau, 8, born Portland St.

Do you have the marriage?

Marriages Mar 1891 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clifford Margaret Marylebone 1a 1012
Tomkins James Norman Marylebone 1a 1012

Thanks to all who replied.

I have now got a copy of the marriage cert for James London and Mary Tomkins (Toronto, Canada)

Also managed to get a copy of the ships list for James London travelling to Canada (Quebec)

All helps with dates etc.

Still hunting for Margaret (nee Clifford) Tomkins, Mary Tomkins mother

Regards
Stuart

LOL, we arent professionals (we's be charging you if we were!). Nope, if you read the thread Absolute Basics for Beginners - I will bump it up for you - then you will see the basics for researching.

Hi Heather,

Thanks for all the info. Some of it I had gleaned from the census reports and Free BMD site. The second marriage is a possiblility.

I guess you professionals have access to all the good sites and documents !!!

Its been a fascinating excursion over the years, and have met up with some wonderful people ready to share their experiences.

The Canadian side of the family now seems very interesting. I may have to splash out some money and access some of theit archives.

My ultimate goal is find the wherabouts of Margaret Clifford after the 1911 census.

Regards
Stuart

L and S is a common problem on transcriptions.

Did you see Abes parents above?

Hi All,

Well if you are looking for a name in the census searches this will be an eyeopener.

I was looking for the Abraham London and his wfe Amelia London.

In the 1901 census they turn up as Lendon

In the 1891 census they turn up as Londorn

In the 1881 census they turn up as Sondon

Little wonder searching the archives is such a time consuming past time

I have requested corrections for all three entries at Ancestry.co.uk.
See what happens !!

Regards
Stuart

Do we have this?



ABRAHAM LONDON Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
30 MAR 1855
Christening:
19 APR 1855 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London, England
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: PHILIP LONDON Family
Mother: MARGARET

His elder bro:

PHILIP LONDON Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
01 JUL 1852
Christening:
10 OCT 1858 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London, England
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: PHILIP LONDON Family
Mother: MARGARET


JOHN LONDON Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
28 MAR 1850
Christening:
10 OCT 1858 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London, England
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: PHILIP LONDON Family
Mother: MARGARET

CHARLES LONDON Pedigree
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
21 JUN 1857
Christening:
10 OCT 1858 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London, England
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: PHILIP LONDON Family
Mother: MARGARET


In the same parish there is another London family

CLARK ROBERT LEEDER LONDON Family
Mother: JANE

1851:

Name: Philip E London
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1815
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Margaret
Gender: Male
Where born: Shaftesbury, Dorset, England

Civil parish: St Pancras
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View image

Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Somers Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 127
Household Members:
Name Age
Philip E London 36
Margaret London 33
John London 1
Alfred Smith 17

Alfred Smith is a nephew.

Phillip and Margarets marriage, by the looks of it. Looking at her age and his - hmm, could be a second marriage. Get the cert though.

Marriages Jun 1849


London Philip Marylebone 1 246
Lorimer Margaret Marylebone 1 246 -


Cor, I could do this one all day - I reckon that name is going to go a good few centuries back - traceable - but I have to do some paid work AND I dont want to spoil it for you to find yourself.

No contraception readily available then Stuart - people carried on producing children until they were no longer able to or died.


Glad the marriage came up trumps.

Hi Margaret,

Thanks for your response.

John, John Patrick, Patrick, and Patrick John run the family as christian names (on the Clifford side, Mary's mother).

Also the parents names of John London and Mary Tompkins is not a mile away from what is on the marriage cert Liz found.

It does seem a long while after the marriage ( 1913) though !!
Anyway all things are possible.

Regards
Stuart

There's a death in York Ontario of John Patrick London, born 19 Jan. 1928, Canada, died 31 Dec. 1928, York, Ontario, Canada, age 11 months. Parents are James London & Mary Tompkins.

Border Crossings: From Canada to U.S., 1895-1956
about James London
Name: James London
Arrival Date: 28 Oct 1912
Age: 21
Birth Date: abt 1891
Birthplace: London
Birth Country: England
Gender: Male
Race/Nationality: English

Port of Arrival: Niagara Falls, New York, USA
Record has photo?: No


He was an exhibition fitter, resident at 195 Vinetta? Street, Montreal and had no relatives in Canada. He was travelling to Buffalo, NY for temp work.




Canadian Passenger Lists, 1865-1935
about James London
Name: James London
Gender: Male
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Date of Arrival: 15 Jul 1912
Vessel: Lake Manitoba
Search Ship Database: View the 'Lake Manitoba' in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database
Port of Arrival: Quebec
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Roll: T-4788


He was a fitter.

Liz,

Fantastic. That is a match for Mary Tomkins parents, and pretty close for James London's parents. I have her birth cert for 18 Feb 1893 with those parents.

Can you see any children from the Mary Tomkins_James London marriage ??

Regards
Stuart

Here's the marriage that Heather found for you and I notice that Mary London, wife, was on his attestation papers and he was a painter.


Ontario, Canada Marriages, 1857-1924
about James London
Name: James London
Birth Place: London England
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Father Name: Abraham London
Mother Name: Amelia Skimer (should be Skinner)
Spouse Name: Mary Tomkins
Spouse's Age: 21
Spouse Estimated Birth Year: abt 1892
Spouse Birth Place: London
Spouse Father Name: James Tomkins
Spouse Mother Name: Margaret Clifferd (should be Clifford)
Marriage Date: 27 Aug 1913
Marriage Place: York
Marriage County: York
Family History Library Microfilm: MS932_284

Here are a couple of records for Abraham that might help.


1861 census transcription details for: 11, Caroline Street, Pancras
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG09 Piece: 115 Folio: 131 Page: 26

Reg. District: Pancras Sub District: 5 Camden Town
Enum. District: 4 Ecclesiastical District: St Stephens
Parish: Pancras City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 11, Caroline Street, Pancras
County: London, Middlesex
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation,
Disability Where Born
LONDON, Philip Head Married M 44 1817 Tailor
Dorsetshire
LONDON, Margaret Wife Married F 36 1825
St Pancras
Middlesex
LONDON, John Son M 11 1850 Scholar
St Pancras
Middlesex
LONDON, Philip Son M 8 1853 Scholar
St Pancras
Middlesex
LONDON, Abraham Son M 6 1855 Scholar
St Pancras
Middlesex
LONDON, Charles Son M 3 1858
St Pancras
Middlesex
LONDON, George Son M 1 1860
St Pancras
Middlesex




1871 census transcription details for: Wilsted Court Cottages, Pancras
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG10 Piece: 227 Folio: 20 Page: 33

Reg. District: Pancras Sub District: Somers Town
Enum. District: 18 Ecclesiastical District:
Parish: Pancras City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Wilsted Court Cottages, Pancras
County: London, Middlesex
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation, Where Born
LONDON, Phillip Head M 56 1815 tailor, b Shaftesbury, Dorset
LONDON, Margt Wife F 47 1824 London
LONDON, Phillip Son M 18 1853 porter, London
LONDON, Abraham Son M 16 1855 messenger telegraph dept, London
LONDON, George Son M 11 1860 London

Hi Heather,

Wow thanks for that! I have been looking for Mary Tomkins for some time now.
This will begin to close a loop that has been difficult to track down

Regards
Stuart