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Is there any way to narrow a birth in 1923. I have a Dorothy Elise Stephenson nee Parker b Aug 20 1923, in either Leeds or Knaresboro, in my tree. My wife, her daughter was always led to believe that her (Dorothy's) father was Norman Ernest Parker (confirmed by marriage cert) and (this is the puzzle) her mother was Susan Nelles??. Upon checking FREEBMD I found a birth 3rd Qr 1923 which corresponds except that mother's maiden name Dixon. Checking back further I found a marriage Norman Parker to Pollie Dixon 2nd qr 1916in Hemsworth. There is also a record of a death of Polly Dixon 3rd qr 1928. Before ordering birth certificate of Dorothy I would like to confirm if this is the same person.

Robert

That was my thought I have searched after 1928 looking for a marriage Parker/Nelles with different spellings but can't find any. There was also a mention of an aunt Sally Angus with a daughter of Doreen. As my wife was an only child she has no known living relatives other than our immediate family so it like searching for a needle in a haystack or as in Wayne/Tracy.thread an Eedle in a Haystack

Aug 1 Have ordered bc from GRO hope it works

Robert

An update which has me more confused ... had 14 day Ancestry and searched for births for my late mil and only found one with same date and father received bc from GRO based on search and have name basically same (middle name on bc Elsie not Elise as on other docs marriage lic etc) I attribute this to possibly a personal choice later in life, father same Norman Ernest Parker (however his occupation is listed as "butcher's assistant") he was a clerk in the govt when my wife knew him, possibly job change. Mother listed as Mary Parker formerly Dixon.
Based on all the similarities would it be safe to assume that I have the correct bc and that possibly as I have outlined above that Mary died and Norman lived common law with Mary Nelles as I can find no marriage between Parker and Nelles. Any suggestions from those great brains out there.

Robert

n

1901

Name: Norman Parker
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1900
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John W
Mother's Name: Emma E
Gender: Male
Where born: Harrogate, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Harrogate
Ecclesiastical parish: Harrogate St Luke
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Knaresborough
Sub-registration district: Harrogate
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 143
Household Members:
Name Age
John W Parker 40
Emma E Parker 33
Albert V Parker 11
Stanley Parker 5
Doris Parker 3
Norman Parker 1

I wonder whether Susan Nelles wasn't a partner after Mary/Pollie Dixon's death, or at least after Dorothy's birth.

A child born to a man with a woman other than his wife would not be registered with his wife as the mother.

It's different in the case of a child born to a woman with a man other than her husband -- the presumption of legitimacy says that the woman's husband is the father. But it wouldn't make sense to say that the man's wife was the mother, when she pretty plainly wasn't. ;)

So Susan Nelles may have been the stepmother. Unfortunately, I don't see any birth for a Susan Nelles, or marriage of a Susan to a Nelles. One might expect that Norman and Susan would have married after Mary/Pollie's death -- but Susan might have been married.

could Doreen actually be DORIS sister of Norman?

do you have the marriage cert of Norman and Pollie Dixon? although 16 a bit young to get married

Might he have gone by a middle name?


1911

PARKER ERNEST 1892 19 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding


Either he was Norman Ernest who went by Ernest or he was Ernest Norman who went by Norman ...


Only likely looking birth ...

Births Mar 1889
Parker Ernest Norman Chesterton 3b 447

But no, he's in the 1911:

PARKER ERNEST NORMAN 1889 22 Chesterton Cambridgeshire


And this is the Hemsworth Ernest's birth:

Births Mar 1892
Parker Ernest Hemsworth 9c 140

"death of Polly Dixon 3rd qr 1928" -- what was her age at death?


Some odd entries in the 1911 -- searching for surname NELL* in Hemsworth:

NELL FRANK 1887 24 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding

NELLIE [no given name shown in results] 1905 6 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
NELLIE DOROTHY 1910 1 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
NELLIE WALTER 1910 9 MONTHS Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding


The NELL is not in the same household as the NELLIEs.


Living with the NELLIEs:

HILL ARTHUR 1878 33 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
MURRAY ARTHUR 1909 2 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
MURRAY HANNAH 1880 31 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
MURRAY ROBERT 1874 37 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
MURRAY ROBERT 1907 4 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
MIDDLETON EARNEST 1902 9 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
MIDDLETON JOHN 1866 45 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
MIDDLETON LILLY 1881 30 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
MIDDLETON PRISCILLA 1903 8 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding


and I have to run and will leave you with that oddment! I'm wondering about the NELLIEs being NELLES-s ...

Only just started looking at this. Polly/Pollie was an alternative name for Mary, I have on in my own family, took me years to resolve.

Robert, you say you order a birth cert on 1st August - whose was that and what did it say?

Margaret

bc of Dorothy issued Knaresborough
Aug 20 1923 which corresponds with all known facts about her (passport, Angolan Id card etc)
Name Dorothy Elsie this differs slightly from marriage cert and other docs as listed by dob always was Dorothy Elsie again this may be a "vanity" change

Edit I just noticed an error in my first post should have read Mary Nelles not Susan I guess I got mixed up with a famous court case we had over here in Janey's land many tears ago

Sorry
Father Norman Ernest Parker of 10 Newham Terrace Harrogate, Butchers assistant differs fom Dorothy mc as then, Oct 9 1943 he was a clerk
Mother Mary Parker formerly Dixon
registered Sept 24 1923.

Again I am assuming this is my wife's mother. It would be nice to find some other relatives as now it would seem that she has no known living relatives

Robert

I was going to say! Susan Nelles. But that did send me on a bit of a time-consuming wild goose chase, I'm afraid. Proofreadproofreadproofread.

(For the foreigners: Susan Nelles was a nurse charged with the deaths of quite a number of babies she was alleged to have "mercy killed". I believe she was eventually exonerated.)

Now ... you're sure you weren't thinking of someone else when you said Dorothy Parker? ;)


Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong,
And I am Marie of Roumania.

Okay, so I do wonder about those "Nellie"s in 1911.

NELLIE [no given name shown in results] 1905 6 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
NELLIE DOROTHY 1910 1 Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding
NELLIE WALTER 1910 9 MONTHS Hemsworth Yorkshire West Riding


Births Dec 1909
NELLIS Dorothy Scarborough 9d 378
- not accounted for in 1911 - the name Dorothy is of note

No birth for a Walter Nell*. (There are a couple of Walter Nellist-s who are accounted for in 1911.)


No-name born c1905 could be a Mary who could have had a child in 1923.

I think I'd pay to have a look at that 1911 census page -- the original image.

[I'm editing out the Doreen Angus birth details as it seems she is still living. Will send them by PM.]


Marriages Jun 1928
Angus Norman (Dixon) Newcastle T. 10b 193
Dixon Sarah J (Angus) Newcastle T. 10b 193

Too many Sarah Jane Dixons born 1900-1910 in the Newcastle vicinity to guess.

Interesting coincidence on that Norman name.

Births Dec 1903
Angus Norman Newcastle T. 10b 64


Sally = nickname for Sarah
This would also be consistent with Pollie as nickname for Mary, if the family went in for nicknames.


A note:

"There is also a record of a death of Polly Dixon 3rd qr 1928"

-- Pollie Dixon who married Norman Parker would have died as Parker, not Dixon. Unless - the marriage were void or dissolved for some reason, e.g. it was bigamous on one party's part, or they were underage so it was not a validly contracted marriage, or something.

How old was the Polly Dixon who died in 1928? Did I ask that already? ... Yes. ... Okay, I'll answer. There is no death of a Polly Dixon Q3 1928.

... Okay, so Iooked some more. I'd looked at the image for Q3 1928. Nothing.

This one - Q1 not Q3?

Deaths Mar 1928
Dixon Polly 25 Morpeth 10b 520

Not exactly the right place, and she would have been 13 in 1916.


Given the date of the Parker-Dixon marriage, I wondered whether Norman might have been in a foreign military. Checked CEF enrolments at collectionscanada, but no match.


In 1911, both of these are living with a Mary Dixon:

DIXON SARAH J 1902 9 Newcastle upon Tyne Northumberland
DIXON SARAH JANE 1902 9 Newcastle upon Tyne Northumberland

Have found Doreen Angus's marriage and will PM that and any children found.


... And after ages searching BMDs and the electoral roll and BT on line ... I discover that her husband is a member of GR and has her in his tree. Hopefully he's still active and will receive a PM if you contact him via a tree search! Otherwise, I've provided the link to Whirley's thread for a lookup of the details of the ER listings.


*IF* the Parker-Dixon marriage is your couple, then this seems like a pretty perfect match.

!!! After I sent you those PMs, I realized what your name is, and it looked familiar, so I checked my contacts list ... and we have 3 pages of PMs exchanged. ;) If you do the same - click on my name above one of the PMs I sent - you'll see, and if you don't remember who I am, I'll remind you. All the way back to the Hurene case, and before.

Oh, heck, I'm going to quote you, from your very first PM to me - in 2007! Oh, all right, I'll leave out the parts about me being a genius and a wonderful person and all ...

"As I have been trying to find any (even distant) relatives for my wife I know how frustrating it can get."


And here I thought you were a complete stranger. ;) But I have the feeling you'd figured this out already??

I just hope that this doesn't mean you've had threads about this before ...

... Ah, just a little one (hard to tell with all those deletions - ??) ... and no luck?

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=983819


I'm just going to cross my fingers that I'm not sending you off on a complete goose chase with this Aunt Sally construction ...

Now, from info gleaned by searching trees, it seems that Sarah Dixon was born in 1901. (Her grandson has her in his tree.)

Births Jun 1901
Dixon Sarah Jane Newcastle T. 10b 79

Births Dec 1901
Dixon Sarah Jane Newcastle T. 10b 80


They have Norman Angus as born 1905, but I suspect my 1903 birth is the right one.

Yes Janey I had assumed that it was you and I reiterate that you have to be brilliant dealing with all those wise men and women . I am now in the process of, along with my wife, going through all her old diaries to see if I can glean any tidbits of useful info. My eyes are now beginning to look like p*** holes in snow, but I have so far found that her gfather Norman died Oct 24 1976 and that his bday was Feb 5 1900, this would tie into a FreeBMD Page 112 v9a for a Norman Ernest Parker district of Knaresboro. Mary's dob Aug 26 yr unknown but there was a link to the area mentioned inyour post. Info on death came to mil through "Doreen" FYI Dorothy is deceased so no privacy issues. I hope to get back to this hopefully later tonight.

Robert

So he would be this NP in 1901 in Harrogate, Knaresborough reg dist:

John W Parker 40
Emma E Parker 33
Albert V Parker 11
Stanley Parker 5
Doris Parker 3
Norman Parker 1

and yet he still doesn't exist in 1911! And he would be very young to have married in 1916.


1911

PARKER JOHN 1861 50 Knaresborough Yorkshire West Riding
PARKER EMMA 1869 42 Knaresborough Yorkshire West Riding

None of the children from 1901 is living with them!

I have found a marriage between a Norman Parker and Polly Dixon 2qr 1916 in Hemsworth Yorkshire page 282 v9c. This is where I got the Polly connection. Possible??

Robert