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Hi Rose
I have been sent this for the marriage of my Winifred and Reginald Russell,

I've had a look on the FreeBMD site to see if he could be found but without success. However I did come across the marriage of Winnie and Reg viz:

Marriage Q1 1941
Winifred A F Hayward to Reginald Russell at Camberwell, 1d 1444.

Obviously this is 11 years after Robert Russell was supposed to be born. I took another look at the birth indexes and found the following:

Birth Q4 1929
Robert L R Hayward, mothers maiden name Butler, Camberwell, 1d 917.

However a birth of 11th November would match with this quarter - what do you think?

Colin

Hi Rose

Looks like the right Winifred but as to the William I can't comment we only knew him as Reg.

As to the date of registration 1941 is this the marriage date or what, Bobby was born in 1930 but this means nothing really.

Colin

Here's the marriage but it's to a William J Russell

England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1916-2005
about Winifred A F Hayward
Name: Winifred A F Hayward
Spouse Surname: Russell
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1941
Registration district: Camberwell
Registration county (inferred): Surrey
Volume Number: 1d
Page Number: 1444
Find Spouse: William J Russell

Rose

I think these are the births:

Births Jun 1916
Hayward William J C Butler Greenwich 1d 1834

Births Jun 1921
Hayward Frederick C Butler Camberwell 1d 165

Births Dec 1929
Hayward Robert L R Butler Camberwell 1d 917

I'm not seeing a remarriage for Winifred either. I bet one of Robert's middle names is Russell.


Rose

Hi Colin,

If you look at FreeBMD you will see there aren't births listed that match your infomation.

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

Rose

Hi Rose

Sorry for the confusion.

William Hayward b 1896 c head
Winifred (nee Butler) Hayward b 1896 wife
Christopher Hayward b 1916 son
William Hayward b 1918 son

Divorced i think then re married.

Reginald Russell b 1890 c head
Winifred (nee Butler Hayward ) b 1896 Russell wife
Robert Russell b 11/11/1930 son called Bobby

I hope this helps

Since you gave us the info regarding the Butler we have made contact with a distant relative who has researched the family history of them including spouses and grand parents back from William Frederick.

Colin

Hi Colin,

Having a problem understanding this:

"William b 1916 & Chris b 1918 Hayward, Winifred ( nee Butler ) 1896 & William Hayward b 1896 c sons and Robert ( Bobby ) b 11 Nov 1930 Wini & Reg b 1890 c Russell's son"

Can you put each person's details on a separate line and list who you think their parents were?

Rose

Hi Rose

I have forwarded on the info you have found for us, they are very impressed with what you found as we have spent many years trying to find tis info.

Would you be prepared to see if you can find other members of the Butler family, they are,

William b 1916 & Chris b 1918 Hayward, Winifred ( nee Butler ) 1896 & William Hayward b 1896 c sons and Robert ( Bobby ) b 11 Nov 1930 Wini & Reg b 1890 c Russell's son. all born as far as I know in the Camberwell London area.

Cheers Colin

HI Rose
Finally managed to open this page. 1911 census
Charles Butler head age 44 married Waste paper dealer born Peckham
Mary Butler wife 43 Bermondsey
Mary A dau 18 Single Waste paper sorter Peckham
Ernest son 16 single Carman Peckham
Arthur son 11 school Peckham
Ivy dau 8 school Peckham
Eva dau 7 school Peckham
Florence dau 1 baby Peckham
Herbert Butler Brother 35 Plasterer Peckham

Signed by Mary Butler

4 Carmell Rd Commercial Rd Peckham

Colin,

I do hope you don't take 5 months to read this thread again.

Rose

If you look on IGI you will see that John Bedford Pim and Caroline Pim are siblings, so Ellen and William were cousins.

Rose

They are:

HENRY CLEEVE BUTLER
Marriages:
Spouse: CAROLINE BEDFORD PIM Family
Marriage: 24 NOV 1825 Broad Clyst, Devon, England

Rose

1841:

1841 England Census
about William Butler
Name: William Butler
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1828
Gender: Male

Civil parish: St George in The East
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: St George in the East
Sub-registration district: St Mary
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Butler 35
Caroline Butler 30
Henry Butler 15
William Butler 13
Caroline Butler 12
Bedford Butler 10
Emily Butler 7
Edward Butler 4
Alexander Butler 2

Somehow the Butlers and Pims must be related.

Rose

William in 1851:

1851 England Census
about William F Butler
Name: William F Butler
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1828
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Breadelist, Devon, England

Civil parish: St Mary Whitechapel
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub-registration district: Whitechapel Church
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 91
Household Members: Name Age
William F Butler 23
Henry C Butler 24

Rose

William Frederick was actually married to Ellen's sister Julia first. That explains the daughter called Julia. I couldn't see how Ellen could have been old enough to be the mother.

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about William Frederick Butler
Name: William Frederick Butler
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1827
Spouse Name: Julia Bedford Pearcey Pim
Spouse Age: 18
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 6 Jun 1852
Parish: Saint Philip, Stepney
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Henry Butler
Spouse Father Name: John Bedford Pim



From FreeBMD, it looks like Julia died in childbirth.


Rose

Ellen in 1841:

1841 England Census
about Ellen Pim
Name: Ellen Pim
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Gender: Female
Where born: Surrey, England

Civil parish: St John Horsleydown
Hundred: Southwark
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: St Olaves
Sub-registration district: St John
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Bedford Pim 40
Sarah Pim 38
Mary Ann Pim 16
John Pim 10
Julia Pim 8
Edward Pim 4
Ellen Pim 1

Rose

Ellen was telling a few porkies about her age. Very big age difference between them:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Percival Albert Battson
Name: Percival Albert Battson
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Spouse Name: Ellen Caroline Butler
Spouse Age: 46
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 3 Aug 1890
Parish: All Souls, Newington
County: Middlesex
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Henry Battson
Spouse Father Name: John Bedford Pim

Rose

Look at this! Battson.

1891 England Census
about Newland Bather
Name: Newland Bather
[Newland Butler]
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1879
Relation: Stepson
Mother's Name: Ellen C
Gender: Male
Where born: Peckham, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Georges
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England
Employment status: View image
Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 13a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Percwal A Battson 23
Ellen C Battson 43
Newland Butler 12

Rose

Looks like I have them. Christopher must be Herbert.

1881:

Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Ellen C BUTLER Head W Female 40 Bermondsey Salvage Broker
Julia B. BUTLER Daur U Female 26 Whitechapel Servant
William F. BUTLER Son U Male 24 Sussex, England General Dealer
Henry E. BUTLER Son U Male 19 Bow
John A. BUTLER Son U Male 17 Bow Engine Cleaner
Charles N. BUTLER Son Male 14 Bow
Ellen C. BUTLER Daur Female 10 Maidstone
Edward BUTLER Son Male 7 Maidstone
Christopher BUTLER Son Male 5 New X Rd
Hephzibah BUTLER Daur Female 3 Asylum Rd
Newland BUTLER Son Male 1 Astbury Rd

Source Information:
Dwelling 54 Pomeroy St
Census Place Deptford St Paul, Kent, England
Family History Library Film 1341166
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0711 / 40
Page Number 20

Rose

The son Charles was born in 1867 so maybe I'm on the right track:

1871 England Census
about William F Butler
Name: William F Butler
Age: 42
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Ellen Bedford
Gender: Male
Where born: Broad Clyst, Devon, England
Civil parish: Maidstone
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Maidstone
Sub-registration district: East Maidstone
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 33
Household Members: Name Age
William F Butler 42
Ellen Bedford Butler 40
Julia Bedford Butler 17
William F Butler 13
Emily A Butler 11
Henry E C Butler 7
John A Butler 5
Charles N Butler 4
Ellen C B Butler 1

Rose