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Hi
Above is daughter of John Cooper of Aberdeen. She is born in Aberdeen and marries a shipmaster called George Chalmers. She has a daughter called Mary who marries a William Cromar.

Mary Chalmers grandparents are thus Chalmers, Thomson, Cooper and Reid. All Aberdeenshire.

So.

Why in 1868 (1st draft!) and again in 1883 (thats it I've gone) does Mary sign herself on William Cromars will as Mary Cromar 'the Donald'.

Where does Donald come in?? Anyone know of those surnames connected to Donald??

Mary 'the Donald' is my wifes gg grandma. (aka I'm not a consultant !).

Cheers
J

DevonJon - and your question is about Scotland?? No fair! I live for Devon questions. I've been cheated. And even my Coopers are from Nottinghamshire.

You need a Scottish expert. We have one, the ever generous Thomas. If he doesn't see your thread and drop in within a day or two, add something to it to bump it up and I'll see whether I can rustle him up.

My clueless guessing might be that "the Donald" is a reference to clan membership.

Are you sure it's "the" and not some form of "Mac"?

That one fails.

A random google result:

http://www.dgnscrn.demon.co.uk/

"The arms and tartan are that of Clan Cameron - Chalmers is a sept of Clan Cameron"

Sept, that's what I was trying to think of. So Chalmers isn't a sept of Donald.

Nor is any of the other surnames:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Donald#Clan_septs

Just bumping this up - I'm curious to see if anyone knows the answer!!

Does seem a bit odd - I know that us Scots women keep our maiden surnames all our lives on official documents like wills, second marriage certificates, death certificates etc.

Cheers Folks !

Devon by current location - alas not ancestry but I have another question on that for you Janey !

I didn't say but Mary and William Cromar have a son called Douglas. 2 of his son's are christened with 'Macdonald' as their middle name. I didn't mention as assumed at time it was a clan flight of fancy ! But then when I saw Mary Cromar 'the Donald' in the will it made me wonder. It is very def 'the Donald' no Mac and is repeated a few times throughout the will.

hmmmm.

J

You've exhausted my Scottish expertise. ;)

Any chance she was actually a Donald by birth, i.e. born before her parents' marriage? or to a previous marriage of her mother? If you have her birth and parents' marriage dates / records, that wouldn't work ...

Cheers - as far as I know its fairly clear cut relations.

Mary Cromar (the Donald) was the first born in 1843 of George Chalmers and Mary Cooper in Aberdeen (St Nicholas). The record I have also includes her brother George and sister Susannah.

George C and Mary Cooper were married at St Nicholas , Aberdeen in 1841.

The 'only' added interest is Mary Cromar 'the donald' was married to an Alexander Gordon before William Cromar. Alexander died as a shipmaster I recall it was at sea.

I do have a photo of mary and have discounted that her facial likeness would have led to an association with the duck of Disney fame !

the search goes on !

J

One last random guess. ;)

Might there have been another Mary Cromar in the family at that point?

In that case, "the Donald" might have been added to distinguish them.

Still not helping with what it means, but possibly why it's there.

Hi J, thanks Janey.

Not seen anything like this before, and being Scottish it isn't familiar to me. However there is no accounting for these Highlanders. Because of the earliest date I will have to search the Old Parish Records (OPR's). These are a bit hit and miss as not all ministers and priests were dilligent about keeping records. It may take a while on this one but I will check and see what I can find.

Tom

The normal way in Scotland, in legal terms, would have been to refer to Mary as Mary Chalmers or Gordon or Cromer.

This query has started a long winded debate in our house as to what the 'Donald' meant.

It may be it was put in to differentiate Mary Cromar from another family member also Mary.

It may be she was in some way affiliated to the MacDonald family in the past.

It's quite pertinent her two grandsons had MacDonald as a middle name ... or maybe not.

It may be one of those 'in family' things that only the family of the time would have know about.

If it was a legally drawn up will, the lawyer must have thought it relevant to include.

If It was a hand drawn will, I suppose you could write whatever you wanted up to a point.

Intruiging !

Hi Folks
Nice to have created some intrigue ! here's some thoughts...

Mary Cromar (the Donald) is described as Mary Chalmers or Gordon or Cromar in other BMD papers.

She had a daughter called Mary Cromar and would have been around at time of will writing but I would have thought simply using the Chalmers or Gordon or Cromar would distniguish the two in legal papers.

I think the MacDonald middle name serves only to hint that family lore at the time believed they have some connection perhaps to MacDonald.

Logically I'm thinking any origin of such would have come via Mary's roots through Cooper / Chalmers parents and beyond.

Going further back. I am certain of Marys parents and grandparents but little beyond that.

Maternal: I know Mary Cromar (the donald) mother was Mary Cooper (1820-1882), whose father in turn was John Cooper (1775 - <1841) and her mother Mary Reid. (In some documents a middle name of Reid pops up). John n Mary married 1819 .

Paternal: I know Mary Cromar Donald father was George Chalmers (1814 -1865) and that his mother and father were William Chalmers (1780 - ?) and Margaret Thomson (1784 - ?). William and Margaret married 1805 at St Pauls Chapel, Aberdeen.

Beyond those I've never got further apart from some guesswork.

J

An additional thought.

Just checked through George Chalmers and Mary Coopers wills. Former predeceased latter. They had the 3 children Mary (Donald) , George and Susannah. At Mary Coopers death their son George an engineer had already died at sea on board SS Sidra en route to Bombay.

Thus Mary had Susannah (who marries Thomas McPherson) and Mary Cromar to leave items to. Interestingly Mary Cooper left everything to Thomas, then Susannah, then any of their children. No mention of Mary. Albeit at that time Mary had left Aberdeen with husband and living in Glasgow. Susannah was looking after mother. So maybe not so hard to understand albeit curious that Mary Cromar gets no ref at all.

J

Reading through your last post regarding the wills.

Could it be Mary Cromar was the result of a ‘fling’ concerning her father, George and was not in fact the daughter of Mary his wife.

George and Mary however raised Mary ‘Donald ‘ as their own.

Checking on the IGI for the records of the siblings: Mary – George – Susannah, I notice that only George and Susannah have been Christened. Why not Mary ? Born out of wedlock to another woman ?

If Mary was not the true daughter of Mary Cooper, could she have been referred to as ‘the Donald’ in family circles. Possible reason why she was left out of the family will.

Seems odd Mary was not mentioned at all in the will …. Could her ‘Mother’ have taken against this child who was not her own.

Donald may even be Mary's true surname ....

Just a theory …..

Eeenteresting! The reverse of what I was musing, about being a daughter of Mary Cooper.

I like this one - or some variation on Mary not being the daughter of George Chalmers + Mary Cooper, anyhow. Even something like being a daugher of an unmarried sibling of George, reared by George and his wife, would fit.

Scottish naming patterns - do the names of Mary and her siblings follow the standard one?

Scottish naming patterns: (not always adhered to)

First daughter after the mother's mother.
Second daughter after the father's mother

First son after the father's father
Second son after the mother's father

Hi
She was christened. As well as batch no derived entries which do miss her christening there is another as below.

However, Interesting thing is that I got the scanned birth entry via Scotlands People ages back. Register of births baptisms Aberdeen ...there's was entered 29th Nov 1855 and mary, george and susannah are all entered one after other with birth, baptism, witnesses etc. All 3 to George and Mary.

Whilst the Scots People banner like IGI perpetuates the 1843 date...the baptism is actually very clearly June 1842 (date obscured by middle fold of book) and the birth entry could very easily be read as 184 '2' though the squiggle makes it look a bit like a '3'.

George and Mary married Jul 1841 so Mary coming along April 1842 is feasible so i guess that uncovers nothing really.

J

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mary Chalmers
Pedigree
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
30 APR 1843 Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Scotland
Christening:
15 JUN 1843 Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Scotland
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: George Chalmers
Family
Mother: Mary Cooper

So it should be

Mary - Mary Cooper's mother
George - George Chalmers's father
Susannah - George Chalmers's mother

(unless there were any intervening non-surviving children named in the pattern)

Does that work, Jon?


It will be interesting to see whether Thomas finds anything!

Naming patterns. Not quite !

George Chalmers n Mary Cooper:

1st born is Mary Chalmers ( Mary Coopers mother was Mary Reid)

2nd born is George Chalmers (George snr father was William Chalmers)

3rd born is Susannah Chalmers (Georges mother was Margaret Thomson)

George parents came from his death certificate in 1865. George marriage to Mary Cooper in 1841 the certificate is of type where only her parent john cooper is mentioned.

J

Maybe 'the Donald' is an old Scottish legal term (meaning ???) and would be recognised and understood by a lawyer today specialising in old Wills and Testaments.

Up in Aberdeen they have their own 'speak' and it may be a Doric reference.