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1891 England Census
Name: John Johnstone
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890 - Seven weeks [this might explain the servant relationship, but shouldn't]
Relation: Servant - image is Son
Gender: Male
Where born: Hackney
Civil parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: Hoxton St Andrew
Town: Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 23 Hartford or Hartford Rd

Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: West Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 23a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Chas Johnnie 30 - Farmer, born Hackney [Johnstone of course]
Emily Johnstone 21 - Bethnal Green
John Johnstone 1
Chas Johnstone 7 Weeks

Checking image, will add details.

Never thought of looking for Johnstone, although it does appear further down the tree. It seems to be a mis-spelling in the census but it looks like them. That must be the first Emily {Nethercott}.
Well done Ozibird,don`t know if you`ve seen my new messages,it does take some unravelling. wonder if the second emily is also Johnstone?

It's a complete muddle and it just doesn't support anything you have said!!!!!



> This is taken from a family member who has looked it up but not given any census dates apart from;CHJ in 1881 census shown as single living with parents working as a Journeyman Farrier.

Okay.


> Birth cert of Emily Nethercott 29th Sept 1869at 61 Squirries Street, Bethnal Green, father William Nethercott,mother Caroline Nethercott nee Lyons. 1871 census shows Caroline a widow with 4 children,Mary ann, Sophia Alice, Sarah Jane and Emily still at above address. The birth cert of Mary Ann shows same parents as Emily.

Okay. You knew that all but didn't mention it, so we went looking for it and "found" it in this thread.


> William [Nethercott] died c1870 age 44. Living at the same address is a Henry Hooker. We don`t know if Henry was related to Emily Hooker.

I still don't know who Emily Hooker is, where she came from, and how she comes into this!!!

Where do you have her name from??

What year is Henry Hooker at the address?

Okay. 1871:

Caroline Nethercott + daughters, 61 Squirres St, household schedule 522.
Emily is aged 2.

Henry Hooker, head of third household at 61 Squirres St, household schedule 523a.
Head, unmarried, aged 27, gilder carver?, born Bethnal Green.

In 1881, at 61 Squirrie St (likely the correct name), There are Thompsons and Bridges. No Nethercotts or Hookers.


> In 1861 census the name of Williams wife is shown as Katherine Lusby aged 30 there are some alterations to change it to Caroline.

That's an unfortunate mess, that is. It does look, though, as if they are errors and corrected -- 2-yr-old Mary Ann Nethercott was first entered as wife, and under her is Katherine Lusby, entirely crossed through and replaced by Caroline, wife, tailoress. The age doesn't match Caroline in 1871; it may have been uncorrected.


> In 1847 there are marriages in Shoreditch Q1 Vol 2 Page 330 are names of Caroline Lyons and James Lusby.We don`t have the cert but it seems they married each other.

You need to do the math! Caroline Nethercott could not have married in 1847. (well, maybe, just barely ...) I don't know why you're even considering that marriage as related to you at all. Seems to me Katherine Lusby was an innocent bystander who got mis-entered on the census and that probably omitted altogether.

Looking at the previous census page, the household at the bottom also had the wife omitted, and then squashed in between lines. This was a careless census official.



But back to the big question.

Could you *please* explain who Emily Hooker is, where you have her name from, what her connection is, how she could have had four children by 1907 when she was born 1885/86 (yes, possible, but likely?) -- since she very certainly could *not* have married 1892-4 if she was born 1885/86.


You seem to be chasing red herrings all over the place. Nobody can help you sort them out unless you tell us where the information is coming from!

"a family member who has looked it up" isn't a source. We need to know where the family member was looking it up, and what it actually said. ;)

MA - yes, I have been keeping an eye on the thread and reading all the messages.

Finding them in 1891 isn't helping solve the puzzle though.

Ozi.

Oh lord, Ozi. I tried JOHNSON, JOHN*ON, eventually JOHN* and still didn't find that.


I still don't know --

"It`s these parents marriage that is a mystery as is the Hooker/Lusby scenario."

-- what earthly scenario this is ...

But now, okay, the name HOOKER appears for the mother of a child of Charles Hodges Johnston.

But where does a birth in Kent 1885/6 come from?

I'm with you, Janey.

Unless Emily Hooker is known from a sighted child's cert and that child is actually known to belong to the Charles Hodges/Hedges Johnston/Johnstone who is their ancestor, I think she's a red herring. I'm not being silly here. Often cousins can have the same unusual name and confuse the issue.

MA - your info from your family member is in a total mess. They probably did some of the research before online records made it a lot easier.

I think you need to start afresh.

Has anyone got Charles's death cert to find out the informant? I think that is where you need to start.

Ozi.

For info, from IGI:

Birth/Christening, British Isles
Father: William Nethercott, Mother: Caroline

SOPHIA ALICE NETHERCOTT
Birth: 15 SEP 1864

AGNES JANE NETHERCOTT
Birth: 16 MAY 1857

SARAH JANE NETHERCOTT
Birth: 16 JUL 1867


No Emily. The dates of birth are taken from christening records, I believe (those records are also there). Emily may not have been christened Nethercott.

[Urgh, I'm losing it. Sophia gave the two 1871 daughers already. But just to establish -- there is no Emily in the list of births to the couple.]


>William died c1870 age 44

"c" 1870? No record of death? Not that I see. So, *how do you know this*??

Per the 1861, he was born c1825, for info.

But here's a scenario. Emily was registered as Nethercott, but was Henry Hooker's daughter.


Possible birth for William Nethercott ... who may not be your ancestor. ;)

WILLIAM NETHERCOTT
Christening: 10 JUL 1825 St Mary Whitechapel, Stepney, London, England
Father: THOMAS JASPAR NETHERCOTT
Mother: FLORENCE
Batch No.: C025576

He didn't move very far in 1891, did he?

1881 England Census
Name: Charles Johnston
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Annie
Gender: Male
Where born: Hackney, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St John Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 11 Hertford Road

Occupation: Labour Dustman
Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: West Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 23d
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
John Johnston 58 - dustman; born Dunbartonshire, Scotland
Annie Johnston 51 - born Cossey, Norfolk
George Johnston 22
Charles Johnston 20
James Johnston 18
Elizabeth Johnston 15
Robert Johnston 12
Francis Johnston 7
Frederick Roberts 19 - lodger


1871 England Census
Name: Charles Johnstone
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Anastasia
Gender: Male
Where born: Hackney, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 25 Hertford Road

Occupation: general labourer
Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: West Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 20b
Household schedule number: 640
Household Members:
Name Age
John Johnstone 40 - Scotland
Anastasia Johnstone 41 - Norfolk
John Johnstone 14 - St Pancras
George Johnstone 12 - Windsor, berkshire
Charles Johnstone 10
James Johnstone 8
Elizabeth Johnstone 5
Robert Johnstone 3
George Leggs 39 - lodger

All other children born Hackney.

Possibility, Janey????? Although I think MA said she had Emily's birth cert.

Births Jun 1869
Hooker Emily Rose Bethnal Green 1c 245

Births Jun 1891
Johnston Charles Henry Hackney 1b 487

Deaths Dec 1891
Johnston Anasthasia 61 Hackney 1b 314

Are you sure Charles Hodges Johnston is your man at all? This one seems to be the right age. Have you seen the birth cert? Is Hodges actually on there?
Deaths Sep 1892
Johnston Charles 32 Hackney 1b 227

??????????
Births Sep 1892
Johnston Emily Hannah Hackney 1b 438

I was thinking Caroline could have registered Emily as a Nethercott, even if Hooker was her father. Emily found out later, used Hooker on her children's later birth certs.


The two kids' births, just for ref.

Births Jun 1889
Johnston John Charles Hackney 1b 502

Births Jun 1891
Johnston Charles Henry Hackney 1b 487


Oops, you done that too, Ozi, but we'll leave this just to have 'em both together. ;)

Hodges is a maternal family name so we know we have the right Johnston.
There is a dedicated web site to the Johnston Family in Scotland created by a genealogist who is a family member. He hasn`t looked at this part of the family as he has been tracing his own part of the tree. I need to get this sorted for my own sake .

Charles Hodges Johnston born 17th August 1860 to John Johnston and Anastasia Johnston nee Sadler at 30 St Bartholomew Place Hackney London

MA - it certainly looks like your man then. I've had no luck in 1901.

Ozi.

For info


Marriages Mar 1856
Bligand Henry Islington 1b 207
> JOHNSTONE John Islington 1b 207
REEVES Catherine Islington 1b 207
> SADLER Anastasia Islington 1b 207


MA, you have seen that -- and the postem placed on Anastasia's entry at FreeBMD by a gr-grandchild of their daughter Elizabeth Sarah Johnstone?

http://www2.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?r=24050504&d=bmd_1250161919

The postem contains a name and email address for the gr-granddaughter.

Are you in touch?

Does this fit in?

Deaths Jun 1870
Neathercot William 44 Bethnal Green 1c 190

Looks like William's death! That spelling had appeared in the IGI or someplace, and I'd tried it in 1881, but to no avail ...

Since MA told us William died at 44, I suspect that's one more record she had that we didn't; or she just had somebody's report of it.

Should have pursued that spelling ...


The Agnes in the IGI:

AGNES JANE NETHERCOTT
Birth: 16 MAY 1857

Deaths Dec 1858
Neathercott Agnes Bethnal Gn 1c 235


But nothing else useful -- the Emily marriage in Islington in 1891 is undoubtedly the Emily Nethercott born in Islington in 1878.

I can't seem to find an appropriate death for Emily Johnstone on FreeBMD. I was hoping to find this to help establish the age and therefore which Emily it might be.

Can anyone else have another look?

Thank

Isn't our problem that we don't actually know that Emily married Johnston(e)?

She could have formed a household with / married someone totally different after 1891 (or after Charles died in 1907), and died under that surname ...