Find Ancestors

i've asked for help on this before but as new things come up i've been informed im posting threads incorrectly, i dont want to anger anyone as i am asking for help and appreciate any i get. so i appologise if people are fed up of seeing this post
as i seem to be getting nowhere with looking for correct birth for james born c 1844 then im hoping to jump backwards to his parents. Father also James job described as Blacksmith no other info known

info i ahve on younger james is as follows:

death = james patrick allen age 80 in 1921 living with daughter florence job description upholsterer, living in camberwell london.

this giving his d.o.b. as 1840

marriage certificate = jan 3rd 1864 age (both of age) james patrick allen to elizabeth sarah rumbol james occupation fabricator. his father james allen blacksmith

1871 census
Name: James Allen
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: St George; Southwark
Civil parish: St George
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: London Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household schedule number: 72
Household Members:
Name Age
James Allen 27
Elizabeth Allen 27
Elizabeth Allen 6
May A Allen 4
James Allen 2
George Allen 12 days

1881 census

Name: James Allen
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Lambeth, Surrey, England


Civil parish: Camberwell
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 5 Harriss Place
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Upholsterer

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Camberwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
James Allen 35
Elizabeth Allen 34
Lizzie R. Allen 16
James L. Allen 12
George V. Allen 10
Frances M Allen 8
Charles H. Allen 6
Edith L. Allen 2
Frederick L. Allen
James Rumbol 36

1891 census
Name: James Allen
Age: 57
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Camberwell, London, England

Civil parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: Camberwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 539
Household Members:
Name Age
James Allen 57
Elizabeth Allen 56
George James Allen 32
Leonard Allen 15
Florrie Allen 11
Annie Allen 26
Willie Allen 6
Lillie Allen 4

1911 census
james patrick allen aged 67 upholsterer, wife elizabeth sarah allen aged 67 and daughter winifred aged 21 (this i presume is florence w allen) living in 131 grove lane camberwell
Hope i have listed this correctly

any help appreciated

Kim you are talking about 1840ish here and most people could not read or write let alone remember what year they were born.
Most census have about 1840 or about 1844 etc. Some people also put their christening year. It just depends on the people.

but there is quite a gap between 1840 and at some points he says 1848. plus as an upholsterer i would think he would be quite educated. i just really want to find a birth for him, but im having no joy x

had to leave computer but if anyone can shed any light i will reply later thankyou xx

Dates on death certs are only what the person giving the info thought - my own sons would probably get my day and month correct but wouldn't necessarily get the year right! The census ages only differ by two years. Have you found him on any earlier censuses, especially the 1851 as the nearer the census is to birth the more accurate the age is likely to be.

What address was James living at when he married?

i have no earlier census records that i know for sure are him.
he and elizabeth where living at north wharf road in paddington when they married x

#

It was deleted once I pointed out that there were already multiple threads about the family and it made more sense to ask the question in relation to the concrete facts, in this thread for example, rather than start with a hypothetical question and have people asking for facts.

thankyou von, i will send off for that one and see,

This is a listing of Blacksmiths


you may well spend hours trolling through it!!!



freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~blacksmiths/index.htm





sylvia

thankyou von, i did do that before you said but wasnt aware they charged less, always good to learn new tricks ;0)

And: who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate?


It's always possible that his surname changed as a result of his mother (re)marrying and him adopting a stepfather's surname -- or as a result of him learning who his father was and adopting his father's surname, or having been registered under his father's surname but used his mother's surname ... -- if he was born to unmarried parents, e.g.


Births Dec 1843
DALTON James Patrick Bermondsey 4 13


Bermondsey is now in Southwark dist.

There's no marriage or death for that name in the GRO index. Just as an example of a possibility.

oh my god i feel such a pillock i never even THOUGHT about that! this just gets better and better.

the witnesses where rumbols unfortunatly.
thankyou for giving me something else to look into ;0)
xx

James patrick Allen

B:
1840c in Greenwich
D:
24/10/1920 in Camberwell, London, England

Death
Camberwell, London, England
35 reedham street. daughter florence present. bronchitis,heart failure


1851 England Census
about James P Allen
Name: James P Allen
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Son
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Greenwich

Civil parish: Greenwich
Town: Greenwich
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View image

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Greenwich West
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 29
Household Members:
Name Age
James Allen 27
Ann Allen 27
James P Allen 3
Ann E Allen 2
Maria J Allen 2 Mo

Found on an ancestry tree

1861 England Census
about Ann Allen
Name: Ann Allen
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Greenwich, Kent, England

Civil parish: Poplar
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image

Registration district: Poplar
Sub-registration district: Poplar
ED, institution, or vessel: 32
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
Ann Allen 37
Ann E Allen 13
Maria Julia Allen 10
Thomas Edward Allen 8
Alice Hannah Allen 6
Philip John Allen 4
Joshua James Allen 3
Hannah M Mitchell 62 (

View
Original
Record

that first one i believe you may have found on my ancestry tree, it's a record i had but was not sure it was correct, due to the fathers job description. it had all been guess work,

i feel like screaming at the moment, i hate to give up but if janey is right then i dont know where to begin, ive run a search of all the james born in surrey and tried matching marriages to a james allen but there is just too many.
the one janey listed james patrick dalton i cant find any link to allen
this is on my main family tree not just a branch off, i hate to think its going to be a non starter

I have not found a blacksmith but this one says I think wheelwright which can be a linked occupation

1841 census - household transcription
Person: ALLEN, James
Address: Sarah Ann Street, St Mary Newington, Lambeth

ALLEN, James M 50 1791 VIEW
ALLEN, John M 20 1821 Surrey VIEW
ALLEN, James M 14 1827 Surrey VIEW
ALLEN, Hannah F 40 1801 VIEW
ALLEN, Hannah F 15 1826 Surrey VIEW
ALLEN, Angeline F 16 1825 Surrey VIEW
ALLEN, Mary F 7 1834 Surrey

this is a strange one.
on FMP

May be someone could check Ancestry

1861 census - household transcription
Person: ALLDEN, James
Address: 37, Mitre Street, St Marys Lambeth, Southwark


ALLDEN, James Head Married M 32 1829 Blacksmith
Surrey VIEW
ALLDEN, James Wife Married F 32 1829
Middlesex VIEW
ALLDEN, Jane Daughter F 8 1853 Scholar
Surrey