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Can i just thank you all for your help, have finally solved the riddle of my Gt Grandfather......

Sarah Martin who married James Herbert was the right one, he was born Dec 1882 in Aberdeen to William Martin and Sarah Ann Taylor, his father was a stone mason, 1891 census for Aberdeenshire Scotland shows them all together, with Brother Robert and Sister Elizabeth, his father then died in 1892 in Nigg, Torry of TB and his mother after moving back to Manchester married again, and was unfortunately widowed again not long after. I have now found some descendants of Wiliams fathers family! thank you all once again.

Thanks for those rootgatherer, from recollection Nan said he had sisters, they visited regularly after his death to help his widow, so where are they? Just wish nan could have recalled their names. I'll check around for Annie Herd/Hird again to see if i can find anything

The census with the William as a grandchild in 1891

Name: William Martin
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relationship: Grandchild
Mother's Name: Annie
Gender: Male
Where born: St Fergus, Aberdeenshire
Registration Number: 168/2
Registration district: Old Machar
Civil parish: Aberdeen Old Machar
County: Aberdeenshire
Address: 28 Baker Street
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 5
Household schedule number: 113
Line: 7
Roll: CSSCT1891_52
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Herd 65 Gen Serv Dom
Annie Herd 36 Flax Reeler
Jane Mary Herd 15 Grandchild, Flax winder (at Mill)
William Martin 10



The same family in 1901



Name: William Martin
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relationship: Stepson
Mother's Name: Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: St Fergus, Abdnshire
Registration Number: 168/2
Registration district: St Machar
Civil parish: Aberdeen Rosemount
County: Aberdeenshire
Address: 40 Esslemont Avenue
Occupation: Galley Pressman
ED: 48
Household schedule number: 133
Line: 7
Roll: CSSCT1901_59
Household Members: Name Age
Robert S Taylor 35 Labourer Smoke Tester
Ann Taylor 39 Wife
William Martin 21
Jane Mary Hird 23 Step Daughter
Mary Hird 75 Mother-in-law, Retired Dom Serv


So, if Ann was the mother of William she may never have been married to his father. Her marriage certificate to Robert Taylor may say if she is a widow or spinster. If this William's parents were unmarried he may have known his father and used his surname but if the father was unable to attend the registering of the birth he may have been registered as William Hird/Herd

I have just checked ancestry again and for some reason his death record now says he is William 'W' Martin.. have checked all service numbers I had for him and a new one off the CGWC listing on there i had no knowledge of until today, and no Army records found, but checking back on those births you found Helen, i am beginning to think he wasn't born in Aberdeen but maybe grew up there so assumed he was born there, or his father was born Aberdeen???? ... which only adds more problems! arghhhh is the W standing for his mothers maiden name? as i notice some of those registrations have what looks like two surnames.... this just gets worse.... have sent off an email to the cemetary he's believed to be buried in to see if they can help.. I know his wife is buried there in a family plot, so have asked if they can tell me who else is in it and any other information they can give me. Faye (going mad)

Thanks Aileen, atleast it helps us rule out yet another theory haha

This really has me stumped, i have checked for him under any birth county in Scotland and can't find any on census's that match, possible ones even slightly out on age/area can't be tracked back or forward to match either. Hit a real brick wall here :o(

Edit.. now that's an interesting find Aileen, just have to see if a marraige can be found of aJames to Sarah, shame her POB is Not Known! typical! Maybe the ennumerator got it wrong and assumed they were step sons when they are actually sons, but then tracing back the ages and POB change in 1891, still possible match i don't know??

There is a marriage of a Sarah Martin to a James Herbert 1895 Chorlton....she could have been widowed twice in a short space of time.......

Not much help but the Ethel Martin born 1899 Manchester was not a half sister to William ......1911 census parents Joseph and Mary Ann

I tried to track her back and couldn't find anything, I still wonder why she is Herbert and not Martin... i'll keep trying different things and hopefully something will come up, thanks Helen

I think the best you can hope for is either finding a birth certificate with the name James as father .... or another father's name with an occupation given as Mason.

I wouldn't dismiss the earlier census showing Sarah Herbert as Step-mother. She has a daughter, Ethel and I notice there is an Ethel in among William's daughters. Maybe this is clutching at straws but I'd keep it on the back burner as a possible.

There is no sign of a birth for Ethel Herbert .... but, there is an Ethel Martin born 1899 in Manchester.

Ethel Martin
Dec qtr 1899
Manchester
8d 241

wonder if she could be a daughter to James Martin and sister to William ... as well as the other sister, Elizabeth, mentioned on the census. With regards to Sarah Herbert not being called Martin, one of my Gt grandmothers reverted back to her maiden name when she was widowed although her children are on the same census under their father's name.

It's starting to look that way, unless i get a miracle!!!

Strange though, Nan always said they had money and sent money down to his widow for her children, you'd think there would be something somewhere :o( Only other thing i know is he had sisters, what there names were Nan couldn't remember, and now she's passed i can't ask anyone :o(

I was thinking the same thing. Unfortunately, you can't always rely on the information given in certificates.

If William's father died when he was a young boy, he may well not have known his father's name or memory played tricks on him.

This is not uncommon and I have several instances of this happening in my own research.

Drat, there goes that lead, thought maybe he had married a Herd, and can't trace the 1883 one, back to square one, will try end of the month and get credits to see what those births say, i'm begining to wonder if he made this James up haha Thanks for the help :o)

I saw that census earlier but wasn't sure if it was relevant

Scotlandspeople:

There is a James Martin married ? Herd. (not Ann or Annie)
also not in Aberdeen. The marriage was after 1900.

Will do Helen, have just checked the 1881 he's on 1891 as Grandchild to an Annie Herd, would i need a credit to search for a marriage of James to a Herd?

Going to see if i can find the 1883 one and what info that will bring me, thanks for the leads though :o)

Faye,

Hopefully one of these will turn out to be your William.

Keep me posted on the outcome.

Good luck.
Helen

Helen, thanks so much, you're a gem, there's two that i think could be him the 1881 and 1883 one, all evidence so far points to those years, he was 2 years younger then his wife, her birth is registered 1880 so depending when his birthday was he could be 1881 or 1883, i'm deffinately going to have to get credits on Scotlands people when i have some money, hopefully one of those is born to a James, I hope so or i'm going to end up in an asylum haha

I had a spare credit for Scotlandspeople: Here are the births for William Martin born between 1880 and 1885. According to the age given on William's marriage certificate it could be c.1883 ... give or take a few years.

No Year Surname Forename Sex District City/County/MR GROS Data Image Extract
1 1881 MARTIN WILLIAM M OLD MACHAR ABERDEEN CITY/ABERDEEN 168/02 1512 VIEW
2 1883 MARTIN WILLIAM M LUMPHANAN /ABERDEEN 220/00 0004
3 1883 MARTIN WILLIAM M OLD MACHAR ABERDEEN CITY/ABERDEEN 168/02 0093
4 1886 MARTIN WILLIAM M ABERDEEN OLD MACHAR ABERDEEN CITY/ABERDEEN 168/02
5 1886 MARTIN WILLIAM M ST NICHOLAS ABERDEEN CITY/ABERDEEN 168/01 0675
6 1884 MARTIN WILLIAM ALEXAND M OLD MACHAR ABERDEEN CITY/ABERDEEN 168/02 0095
7 1886 MARTIN WILLIAM ALEXAND M PETERHEAD /ABERDEEN 232/01 0430 VIEW
8 1885 MARTIN WILLIAM ALLAN G M OLD MACHAR ABERDEEN CITY/ABERDEEN 168/02 0890
9 1880 MARTIN WILLIAM CLARK M ST NICHOLAS ABERDEEN CITY/ABERDEEN 168/01 1052 VIEW
10 1880 MARTIN WILLIAM LAING M COULL /ABERDEEN 182/00 0002
11 1885 MARTIN WILLIAM SINCLAI M ST NICHOLAS ABERDEEN CITY/ABERDEEN 168/01 1586

Helen his children were oldest to youngest Janet (did find a William christened to a James and Janet but someone has them on IGI and they aren't mine i don't think and i don't think the area was right) Elizabeth (or Lizzie as they always called her) Mary, William, Ethel, then Violet and Marguerite twins.

BTW I do appreciate the help, thanks, i'm driving myself mad so it's nice to get someone else's ideas, you never know you just may crack this for me :o)

What are William's childrens names.

Scottish people tended to name their children after their parents.

Maybe could find William's mother's name in among his daughters ... if he had any.

I could end up spending thousands haha Great this History Lark isn't it haha

That looks very interesting Helen, I'm thinking that's one i can try to trace forward and see where it goes, have tried all other possibles, can't find that other one i was tracing back, Frances dissapears and i'm sure born 1840 she'd have had children born earlier, I feel like a headless chicken haha I tought that one may be Fifeshire, I wish i knew Scotland better, i'd have more idea of what i was looking for.