Find Ancestors

Deborah - sorry, but I for one (having beavered away at this family for some time) can't see the remotest possible connection between what you posted and the subject of the thread!

Edit - forgive me! You must have done a board search for "du Solle" which does appear in this thread back on page 1 - to refresh my memory ;) I said:


In 1871:

Jane Dee Solle 45
Annie A Solle 20
Tommaso J Solle 15
> Annie Penn 20 - born Chiswick - visitor - occupation Governess
Josephine Andrews 6 months

Civil parish: Hammersmith
Registration district: Kensington

The name looks like Du Solle, which doesn't make much sense.


So lemme think about that one!


The only "du Solle" records in the GRO index:

Marriages Dec 1882
Du Solle Annie Brentford 3a 180
(this one has just been added at FreeBMD so the info might be new to you?)

Deaths Dec 1893
Du Solle Jane Clarence 82 Wandsworth 1d 538


Jane shows in 1871 as born in New York.

Annie Penn was a visitor in the household on census night.

And that's one of those situations where we might never ever know what the connection between them was!

This may confuse rather than clarify but here goes:
Jane DuSolle was my great great grandmother. The father of her daughters, Annie and Tomassa, was John DuSolle, a writer and newspaper editor in Philadelphia and New York. Jane was a singer who followed her sister Ann to America in the late 1830s. I haven't established why she returned to England.
The point of this note, and it may be completely unrelated, is that John DuSolle was witness to the naturalisation of a Jane J Stevens in New York in 1854. I wasn't able to find her in any subsequent US census and I have no other details about her. Apparently the only requirement of a witness to naturalisation is that they are a US citizen. They didn't need to know the person well - although that doesn't mean they didn't.
I hope this is helpful. Look out for my story about John DuSolle in a forthcoming issue of the BBC's Who Do You Think You Are? magazine.
Regards,
Deborah

Sorry I didn't nudge you I didn't know how!! OMG!! I need to sit and take this all in but I tell you what I did find a couple of weeks back.

I found Ann Penn on the 1891 census now Annie Freeman and living with 2 sons one called Charles A Freeman and Thomas B Freeman.

I then find her husband Thomas Freeman living with a.......wait for it.....
Stephen J Hare (to me this is a combination of John Hare Depicke Stephens) and shown to be his son in law which I under stand in those days was an adopted child or that of a partners first marriage, have a look and tell me what you think but I think it is them. No wonder we couldn't find them it seems his whole name has got in a right muddle, I never realised my family would cause so much trouble.

Jackie

Okay, for charles Augustus Ste* born 1840 to 1860, we have two likely candidates:

Births Mar 1842
Stevenson Charles Augustus Barnet 6 472
(Middlesex, where Ann was from)

Births Jun 1845
STEVENS Charles Augustus Newington 4 335
(Surrey, where John was born)

(Have also considered the possibility of someone named Steidler or Steinecke anglicizing the name to Stephens).


This is Charles Stevenson 1842 in 1881 in Limehouse:

Charles A. Stevenson 39 - born Finchley, stationer
Susannah Stevenson 38
Charles A. Stevenson 6
Henry E. Stevenson 1
Emily J. Margetts 2 - niece

They married in Q1 1872 in Hampstead. In 1871, he's Chas A Stevenson, a domestic gardener, with his mother Elizh in Finchley.


And Charles Augustus Stevens died 1847 in Newington.


So I've got nowhere!

Would sure like to find Ann and/or John in 1891.

Only match I see for that Charles in 1871:

Name: Charles A Stephen
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relation: Inmate
Where born: Salford, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Cheadle Moseley
Town: Cheadle Hulme
County/Island: Cheshire
Manchester Warehousemen & Clerks Orphan School

Looks like a bit of a posh orphans' school. The neighbours are bourgeois. For children of clerks??

Brother Francis is with a mother and grandmother, both annuitants, with a servant, in Pendleton. So I suspect the orphan school was a bit of a boarding school.

Had wondered whether they had a father Charles Augustus who might be a candidate, but he was already deceased by 1871. Following all possible leads!

One down, Francis's birth:

Births Jun 1862
STEPHEN Francis Collier Salford 8d 12

and Charles:

Births Mar 1860
STEPHEN Charles Atherley Salford 8d 62


So not Charles Augustus. Still a bit of a coincidence. Right place, right time, right occupation. Would have been really awfully young when John was born, even if we consider the son of the household exploiting the help scenario (the one my gr-grandmother experienced).

Still looking!

Where exactly was John born, in Kingston reg dist?


I've found something interesting, searching 1881 by occupation.

Name: Charles A. Stephens
Age: 21
>> I think I might read it as 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relation: Grandson
Where born: Salford St Phillips, Lancashire, England
>> Occupation: Lower Division Clerk Audit Office (C S)

Eugenie A. Collier 83 - house owner & annuitant, born France
Charles A. Stephens 21
Francis C. Stephens 18 - grandson, clerk, city bank
Nassie B. Stephens 14 - granddaughter
Martha Corbett 30 - servant
Ellen Watkiss 19

Civil parish: Wimbledon
Registration district: Kingston
County/Island: Surrey


I wonder whether we are looking at Ann's previous employers?

I'm not having any luck finding the birth of either Charles or Frances. Let's have a look for them in an earlier census.

So, I think the "formerly Penn" is just an extraneous bit of verbiage. She was Penn from birth, and still Penn when John was born. It could be a hint that she had been (maybe still was) married and was using her birth surname to register John. Or she invented John Penn to make herself look married, and messed it up by giving Penn as her birth surname. ;)

Ann in the 1851 census:

Name: Ann Penn
Age: 7 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Philip
Mother's Name: Eliza
Where born: Chiswick, Middlesex, England

Births Sep 1850
Penn Ann Brentford 3 21

Her parents' marriage, I would be pretty sure for now:

Marriages Dec 1849
Penn Philip St Martins 1 137
Peterson Eliza St Martin 1 137

The Peterson children in the 1851 household were Eliza's before her marriage to Penn - unmarried or widowed, we'll leave it for now.

John HD Penn's marriage certificate - he married as John HD Stephens - says his father was Charles Augustus Stephens, a bank clerk. Who doesn't exist, if I have it right so far.

In 1881, John is Penn (I think we can rule out the John Stevens in the hosp)
In 1901, he is Stephens and his mother is Freeman.

We've never found them in 1891, have we?

Ann's sister Eliza Peterson is with them in 1901. In 1891 she is visiting married sister Priscilla in Hertfordshire:

Priscilla Hulls 53 - it's Hull; no husband present; born London, Hackney Rd
William Hulls 16 - bargeman, born Herts, Ware
Walter Hulls 13
Eliza Peterson 49 - lady's nurse, domestic

Ann isn't there ...

Still looking around!

Sorry, Jackie, I did see it back when you posted and was in the middle of a heavy workload and set it aside and forgot to come back. Got your PM, you didn't 'nudge', but I found it. ;)

Will have a look and a think ...

Hi

I finally have the birth cert back for John Penn and yes the name on there is John Hare Depicke Penn, but to confuse things its got his father down as John Penn and his mother as Ann Penn formally Penn how confusing is that.

Please Help!!!!

Jackie

I'm not going to speculate until you have that certificate!

I doubt that Ann was ever married to Stephens, or possibly that Stephens even existed. If it was her who married Thomas Freeman, and she was widowed or they were estranged when John was born, Thomas would not have been his father so she could have registered him under her name or John's father's name.

She may have lived with Stephens and/or Freeman and used one or both of those names at one time without being married. There is no record, birth marriage or death, for any Charles Augustus Stephens, so he could simply have been made up out of whole cloth by John when he married! That would leave the question of why he took the name ...

All of these scenarios were not uncommon at all.

C'mon back with that certificate and we'll think on't.

Thanks so much for your help you don't know how much it means to finally get some info on this family of mine!

Just a thought if Ann Penn had been widowed when she had John H D then why do you think she gave him her maiden name or is that what they did in those days? or do you think she could of had him out of wedlock and then married his father Charles Augustus Stephens at a later date? but then we would expect there to be some record of that wouldn't we?

I have access to the 1911 census but can't find John H D or his father Charles Augustus anywhere.....any idea's on that one.
I am off now to order that cert and will let you know the outcome when it arrives. Thanks again you have all been a great help.

Jackie

Births Sep 1850
Penn Ann Brentford 3 21


This is the only likely marriage I'm seeing:

Marriages Sep 1889
? FREEMAN Thomas Bellingham Brentford 3a 197
King Louisa Brentford 3a 197
? Penn Ann Brentford 3a 197
Young Frank Brentford 3a 197


It suggests that it was a short marriage and they were estranged or she was widowed when she had John.

Yup! Don't just think it, pretty much got the proof of it now. ;)

Pending that birth certificate ...

Annie Penn is back with her mother in 1881, in Hammersmith:

Eliza Penn 72
Mary Ann Peterson 34
> Annie Penn 29 - dressmaker (as in 1901)
> John Penn 7
Laurence Pryde 15
William H. Wright 13
Lilian Wallwork 10
Arthur T. Rice 9

Name: John Penn
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: Annie
Where born: Kingston, Surrey, England
-- it doesn't actually say he is Annie's son, but his name appears under hers.

Name: Laurence Pryde - it says Pryse
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Adapted Son
Gender: Male
Where born: Whitechapel, Middlesex, England

William Wright is also adopted son, Lilian Wallwork is visitor, Arthur Rice is boarder.


Now ... where did the Stephens come from ...

OMG this is confusing ain't it????

Let me get this right, you think that John Hare Depicke Stephens was really Born John Hare Depicke Penn and that his mother was Ann Penn and that she had him before she married????

I have had such a hard time with this family!!!

You guys on here are soooo clever I have searched and searched for months and months and hey presto you get me the info in record time......
Jackie

Ann Penn is with her mother Eliza in 1861.

In 1871:

Jane Dee Solle 45
Annie A Solle 20
Tommaso J Solle 15
> Annie Penn 20 - born Chiswick - visitor - occupation Governess
Josephine Andrews 6 months

Civil parish: Hammersmith
Registration district: Kensington


The name looks like Du Solle, which doesn't make much sense.

Jane is married, no occupation shown, born Chiswick.
Jane's daughter Annie is unmarried, 20, born in New York.
The other daughter looks like Tourmasa J, born Middlesex.
(probably irrelevant, but just in case)

In 1901, this is Annie Freeman's sister:

Name: Eliza M Peterson
Age: 61
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation: Sister - unmarried
Where born: Chiswick, Middlesex, England


1851:

Name: Eliza Peterson
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Philip
Mother's Name: Eliza
Where born: Chiswick, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Chiswick

Philip Penn 56
Eliza Penn 43
Philip Thomas Penn 4
Punetta Peterson 15
William Peterson 13
> Eliza Peterson 11
Mary Ann Peterson 9
> Ann Penn 7 Mo


Well well.

Name: Ann Penn
Age: 7 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Philip
Mother's Name: Eliza
Where born: Chiswick, Middlesex, England


It appears that Annie Freeman's age is understated a little in 1901.

She is the daughter of Eliza and Philip Penn. Eliza Peterson appears to be the daughter of Eliza Penn before her marriage to Philip Penn.


Will that persuade you? ;)

The fact that we can't find John Penn in 1901, but do find John Stephens with the same middle names/initials, is one thing that suggests they are one and the same.

Same given names (it appears), same age, *same place of birth*.

I would get the Penn birth certificate and see what it says, and in particular what the "D" stands for. If it's David, then if it's iffy. If it's Depicke or some version of that, I think it's him. Do you have any idea what the Depicke is and where it comes from?

Do you know anything at all about Annie Freeman? Was that a first husband's or second husband's surname, or her birth surname ...? I haven't been able to find any connection, say by marriage, for Freeman / Stephens and/or Penn.

Thanks for your reply, I am really confused now, are you saying that John Hare D Stephens could of changed his name? When you refer to the 1901 record above I guess you mean the one that details him living with his mother??
Regards
Jackie