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Have found William Wellman in 1901, sadly though he was a widower which is why you wouldn't have found Emma. At this time he was living in Walthamstow, Essex.

x

I'm not quite up to speed here yet, although it looks like a lot of good work. ;)

Just wanted to say ... Joseph Jr White, blacksmith, son of Joseph Sr White, blacksmith ... sister declaring father with same given name as her groom ... isn't anyone else smelling fabricated fathers??

Children of unmarried parents, mother reporting married in censuses but no husband present; White probably being their mother's surname?

Hi Luisha and Janey,

I'm thinking along the same lines as you Janey.... it seems to me that Frances Sophia names the father as William, a jeweller by occupation and the Emma states her father as Joseph a watch maker (both occupations in a similar circle). Maybe Frances snr wasn't married hence the different names for the girls father... after all there are 15 years between the eldest and youngest child.

If we could only find the 1871 census, that probably holds a lot of clues in it!!

I noticed that both the girls had got similar occupations and I wondered how Joseph then became a Blacksmith....... this is normally a trade followed from the father to the son,or frm him being an apprentice to someone, so Mr Wellman probably provided that training for him.

Sorry Luisha I think it may have opened up more questions but I definately think we've found a link to the girls.

I'll pick this up again abit later as I now have a bee in my bonnett with your family....gotta find them in 1871, doesn't help that the girls have completely changed their years of birth though!!!


Dee x

Excuse my ignorance here(!), but are you suggesting that all the children (Frances, Emma, Eliza and Joseph) could have been illegitimate, and that they all took there mother's surname?

I think there are far too many coincidences with the addresses not to link these children up to the same family, or at least, the same mother if not father!

I'm glad you have got the bee in your bonnett Dee - you have been such a great help, it has been good having you on board. It has taken me many weeks to search, and without your help, I certainly would not have gotten this far.

Luisha x

Hi Luisha,

You're probably tucked up asleep by now..... hope your weathers better than ours (very very wet!!!!).

I think it is very possible that Frances Sophia had a different father to Emma and Joseph. Frances Snr may well have been married to William White, what happened I don't know.... but I'm presuming that by the time Emma was born Frances Snr may have hooked up with a chap called Joseph, surname unknown.......... the family maybe under his surname in 1871 and that's why I can't track them down?? As for Eliza, not sure who her father was.

Now I know that Galway Street wasn't a large area I would hazard a guess that Frances Sophia, Eliza, Emma and Joseph were all siblings.... Joseph in 1891 was listed by occupation as a Porter, so I definately think that Mr Wellman looked after his young brother in law and taught him his trade as a Blacksmith.

I've turned the 1871 census upside down and I'll be jiggered if I can see any of the family...... perhaps they didn't want to be found?

I'll pick it back up on Monday when the kids are back at school, (if they give me a few hours over the weekend I'll try then).

Speak soon, Dee xx

I did look for the occupation Skin Dresser/ Fur Skin Dresser on an old Occupation website... they didn't have it listed so I have forwarded the details of the census and they will get back to me when they've looked into it...... sounds quite a grissly job, I wonder if they removed the gubbings from the skin??? Yuk!!!

Just a tiny bit of info here but I think I may know what a 'skin dresser' was:

One definition of a 'Dresser':

Dresser ..... Operator who assembled the yarns or threads prior to weaving of cloth.

As there people were fur (skin) sewers, would the skin dresser perhaps be the person who prepared their needles and threads?

OR... Just a a cloth dresser 'skimmed and cropped' the surface of the cloth, maybe a 'skin dresser did the same to the furs to even them up for sewing .?

Just a thought.

Dea x (Nite nite!)

Hi Dea,

You could be on the right track........ I had a yukky job running through my mind, so i hope you're right.

Don't go I need another pair of eyes on the 1871 census, fresh eyes might spot something that I've missed, even tried my hubbies glasses..... still nothing!! LOL!!

Is it tipping it down where you are and blowing a gale??? Not nice!!


Dee xx

Hi Dee,

Yes, I was tucked up in bed by the time your last message came through! I live in Muscat, Oman, and the weather..... not bad! It is now around the early 30 degree mark during the day and a very pleasant 22+ in the evening - although the mossies are around now, which is not nice!

You are probably nicely asleep now - and well earned too!!

I have searched and searched for a possible marriage for Frances and a Joseph White at around the time Emma, Eliza and Joseph were born and have had no luck - possibly because there wasn't a marriage!

My children go to school on Saturdays and Sundays (our weekend is Thursday/Friday) so I will be onto the 1871 census today - although if you haven't found anything, I doubt very much that I will.

Luisha x

Oh Dee,

I forgot to mention, when I found the marriage on ancestry parish records for Frances Sophia to William John Rhind, there is an interesting connection to the other marriage on the same page, John Wiley to Emily Kenning. John Wiley was a 34 yr old Jeweller, and both marriages were witnessed by the same two people - Elizah Darling and Louisa Darling.

Maybe the Jeweller profession of 'William White' is in some way connected to that of John Wiley.

I know this is of no use to us, but just thought you may be interested!

Luisha x

Here are the Darlings.

1881 census.
Elijah Darling 1825 Cambridgeshire occ Verger
Louisa wife 1838 Middlesex
Nelly dau 1864 Middlesex occ serv.
Grace dau 1865 Middlesex occ dressmaker
Charles son 1870 Middlesex
various other people living with them who are all drapers assistants

address 38 Brunswick Place Shoreditch
So Elijah and Louisa witnessed the weddings because Elijah was the Verger

such people as the Darlings are often called "professional witnesses"


..... I believe they may well have been paid, and were used by people who did not have friends/family to act as witnesses for them.




sylvia

Thank you Quinsgran and Sylvia for your contribution - much appreciated.

Luisha