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Thank you Quinsgran and Sylvia for your contribution - much appreciated.

Luisha

such people as the Darlings are often called "professional witnesses"


..... I believe they may well have been paid, and were used by people who did not have friends/family to act as witnesses for them.




sylvia

Here are the Darlings.

1881 census.
Elijah Darling 1825 Cambridgeshire occ Verger
Louisa wife 1838 Middlesex
Nelly dau 1864 Middlesex occ serv.
Grace dau 1865 Middlesex occ dressmaker
Charles son 1870 Middlesex
various other people living with them who are all drapers assistants

address 38 Brunswick Place Shoreditch
So Elijah and Louisa witnessed the weddings because Elijah was the Verger

Oh Dee,

I forgot to mention, when I found the marriage on ancestry parish records for Frances Sophia to William John Rhind, there is an interesting connection to the other marriage on the same page, John Wiley to Emily Kenning. John Wiley was a 34 yr old Jeweller, and both marriages were witnessed by the same two people - Elizah Darling and Louisa Darling.

Maybe the Jeweller profession of 'William White' is in some way connected to that of John Wiley.

I know this is of no use to us, but just thought you may be interested!

Luisha x

Hi Dee,

Yes, I was tucked up in bed by the time your last message came through! I live in Muscat, Oman, and the weather..... not bad! It is now around the early 30 degree mark during the day and a very pleasant 22+ in the evening - although the mossies are around now, which is not nice!

You are probably nicely asleep now - and well earned too!!

I have searched and searched for a possible marriage for Frances and a Joseph White at around the time Emma, Eliza and Joseph were born and have had no luck - possibly because there wasn't a marriage!

My children go to school on Saturdays and Sundays (our weekend is Thursday/Friday) so I will be onto the 1871 census today - although if you haven't found anything, I doubt very much that I will.

Luisha x

Hi Dea,

You could be on the right track........ I had a yukky job running through my mind, so i hope you're right.

Don't go I need another pair of eyes on the 1871 census, fresh eyes might spot something that I've missed, even tried my hubbies glasses..... still nothing!! LOL!!

Is it tipping it down where you are and blowing a gale??? Not nice!!


Dee xx

Just a tiny bit of info here but I think I may know what a 'skin dresser' was:

One definition of a 'Dresser':

Dresser ..... Operator who assembled the yarns or threads prior to weaving of cloth.

As there people were fur (skin) sewers, would the skin dresser perhaps be the person who prepared their needles and threads?

OR... Just a a cloth dresser 'skimmed and cropped' the surface of the cloth, maybe a 'skin dresser did the same to the furs to even them up for sewing .?

Just a thought.

Dea x (Nite nite!)

Hi Luisha,

You're probably tucked up asleep by now..... hope your weathers better than ours (very very wet!!!!).

I think it is very possible that Frances Sophia had a different father to Emma and Joseph. Frances Snr may well have been married to William White, what happened I don't know.... but I'm presuming that by the time Emma was born Frances Snr may have hooked up with a chap called Joseph, surname unknown.......... the family maybe under his surname in 1871 and that's why I can't track them down?? As for Eliza, not sure who her father was.

Now I know that Galway Street wasn't a large area I would hazard a guess that Frances Sophia, Eliza, Emma and Joseph were all siblings.... Joseph in 1891 was listed by occupation as a Porter, so I definately think that Mr Wellman looked after his young brother in law and taught him his trade as a Blacksmith.

I've turned the 1871 census upside down and I'll be jiggered if I can see any of the family...... perhaps they didn't want to be found?

I'll pick it back up on Monday when the kids are back at school, (if they give me a few hours over the weekend I'll try then).

Speak soon, Dee xx

I did look for the occupation Skin Dresser/ Fur Skin Dresser on an old Occupation website... they didn't have it listed so I have forwarded the details of the census and they will get back to me when they've looked into it...... sounds quite a grissly job, I wonder if they removed the gubbings from the skin??? Yuk!!!

Excuse my ignorance here(!), but are you suggesting that all the children (Frances, Emma, Eliza and Joseph) could have been illegitimate, and that they all took there mother's surname?

I think there are far too many coincidences with the addresses not to link these children up to the same family, or at least, the same mother if not father!

I'm glad you have got the bee in your bonnett Dee - you have been such a great help, it has been good having you on board. It has taken me many weeks to search, and without your help, I certainly would not have gotten this far.

Luisha x

Hi Luisha and Janey,

I'm thinking along the same lines as you Janey.... it seems to me that Frances Sophia names the father as William, a jeweller by occupation and the Emma states her father as Joseph a watch maker (both occupations in a similar circle). Maybe Frances snr wasn't married hence the different names for the girls father... after all there are 15 years between the eldest and youngest child.

If we could only find the 1871 census, that probably holds a lot of clues in it!!

I noticed that both the girls had got similar occupations and I wondered how Joseph then became a Blacksmith....... this is normally a trade followed from the father to the son,or frm him being an apprentice to someone, so Mr Wellman probably provided that training for him.

Sorry Luisha I think it may have opened up more questions but I definately think we've found a link to the girls.

I'll pick this up again abit later as I now have a bee in my bonnett with your family....gotta find them in 1871, doesn't help that the girls have completely changed their years of birth though!!!


Dee x

I'm not quite up to speed here yet, although it looks like a lot of good work. ;)

Just wanted to say ... Joseph Jr White, blacksmith, son of Joseph Sr White, blacksmith ... sister declaring father with same given name as her groom ... isn't anyone else smelling fabricated fathers??

Children of unmarried parents, mother reporting married in censuses but no husband present; White probably being their mother's surname?

Have found William Wellman in 1901, sadly though he was a widower which is why you wouldn't have found Emma. At this time he was living in Walthamstow, Essex.

x

Dee, on the marriage entry for Emma White to William Wellman, she by 'profession' is a fur sewer, coincidentally, on the census entries for Frances Rhind nee White, she is also a Fur Sewer!

Luisha

Have also found Frances and William in 1901 at Bartholomew Buildings. Interestingly, Frances is the Head at this time and William is listed as 'Lunatic'?

Hi Dee,

I have also found a census entry in 1891 for the Rhind family (frances Sophia White) and guess where they were living........ Rahere Street, which is where Francis (mother) and Francis Sophia were living in 1861.

I am almost sure that this is the same Francis who is mother to Eliza, Emma, and Joseph because of the various locations in and around city road, st lukes.

Luisha

My goodness Dee, you have worked extremely hard! Well I have to say, these look like extremely good matches from where I'm sitting!.

I looked at the marriage for Emma, and it was witnessed by Eliza White and also by a George Willard.

Looking at my 1897 map of London - Galway Street is certainly not that big. There does seem to be a lot of 'White activity' in this region though!

The Ironmonger Row for Eliza and Thomas also certainly fits, as Joseph lived at various numbers in Ironmonger Row!.

You have possibly unearthed as many questions as you have managed to solve!!!!!!!, but at least it gives something else to look at.

Bye-the-way, what is a skin dresser - do you know?

thanks again
Luisha
x

I still can't see a marriage for Eliza.... maybe Thomas was still married to Martha Bland??

These look their children;

Thomas Alfred Daniels Baptism 26 Sep 1890 Thomas Daniels,
Eliza Daniels Saint Luke, Old Street Islington
Address 17 Ironmonger Row, Thomas's occ; Skin Dresser


John William Daniels Baptism 19 Jun 1891 Thomas Daniels,
Eliza Daniels Saint Luke, Old Street Islington
Address 17 Ironmonger Row, Thomas's occ; skin dresser

William Henry Daniels Baptism 10 Nov 1893 Thomas Daniels,
Eliza Susan Daniels Saint Luke, Old Street

Thomas's occ Skin Dresser, address is Murray St (image is poor)


So if this is our Eliza she has gained a middle name........ I can't for the life of me see any of them in 1901!!!!!!!!!

Dee x

Now i haven't found a marriage for this Eliza, in 1874 Thomas Daniels married a Marttha Bland... his occupation was a skin dresser, so I'm thinking that this maybe our Eliza?? Need to find a marriage!!!


1891 England Census
about Eliza Daniels
Name: Eliza Daniels
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas
Gender: Female
Where born: St Luke, London, England

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 17 Ironmonger Row

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Daniels 35 Occupation Fur Skin Dresser
Eliza Daniels 32
Thomas A Daniels 1
Mary Lyons 46 Lodger

Is this Galway Street a large area ????

1881 England Census
about William H. Wellmar
Name: William H. Wellmar
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Hoxton, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Luke
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 24 Galway St
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Wellmar 37 >>>> Occupation Coach Smith (ties in with the marriage for Emma)
Jane Wellmar 36
William H. Wellmar 14
Emily Wellmar 12
George Wellmar 6
Helen Wellmar 4

All the other children born St Lukes

Hi Luisha,


Have a look on ancestry at this marriage, also look at the witnesses;

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Emma White
Name: Emma White
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Spouse Name: William Wellman
Spouse Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 20 Sep 1885
Parish: Saint Thomas, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Joseph White Occupation Watch Maker
Spouse Father Name: William Wellman

Emma's address 18 King Street, Hackney Rd


This looks like them in 1891;

1891 England Census
about Emma Wellman
Name: Emma Wellman
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William
Gender: Female
Where born: St Luke, London, England

Civil parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Clement
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 36 Galway Street!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Wellman 24 Occupation; BLACKSMITH!!! Did Joseph learn his trade from him???
Emma Wellman 23
Emily Wellman 5
William Wellman 4
Agnesa Wellman 2/12


Dee xx