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Janey - Yeah, sloppy of me - I posted without refreshing. Actually, I did want to record the subdistrict info for later parish register checks.

I'm afraid I'm confused.

Taylor knows about George Paget 1915's marriage etc. George 1915 is her father (grandfather? known, anyhow) no?

George's brother Joseph died in infancy.

What names are you not finding a death/marriage for, Ellen?

Nobody's finding one for "Elizabeth U Paget". That's kind of the point.

Janey - I don't agree. You say:

I believe that if the father of a child of unmarried parents was named on the certificate (i.e. if the father was present at the registration and consented), it would go:

child: Mary Jane
father: John James Jones
mother: Mary Martha Martin

and the child would automatically be Mary Jane Jones.

--------------------------------

I think the child would usually be known as Mary Jones, but Mary Martin is quite common too, and one even sees the child later using Mary Jones or Martin on statutory regos, etc.
I think the name that got used often depended on whether the father was around or not. My g gran had 3 younger brothers , so there's 4 difft surnames. The middle bro was named Andrew Jones, after his dad, and in the1851 census they're living with Andrew Snr's bro, although he's not around, and my gg gran's using her maiden name. The youngest bro was born shortly after the census, and named after his mum, so the youngest two full brothers had difft surnames. 16 years later, she marr Andrew Snr, and the youngest bro changed his name from Alex Martin to Alex Martin Jones.
I also have the converse example in my family. Here Mary Martha wed John, and Mary Jane Jones was born. The marr broke up - no divorce back then, but on the next census, Mary Martha is back to Mary M Martin, and Mary Jane is down as Mary JJ Martin, sim her bro. One went on to marry as William Jones and the other as Mary Jane Jones Martin.

Ah - I was referring mostly to the actual registration, I think.

Mary Jane
child of the unmarried
Mary Martha Martin
and
John James Jones

would appear in the GRO index as Mary Jane Jones?

And also on the assumption that ordinarily people would want to appear legitimate and so would use the father's surname, e.g. marry under that surname and name that father. Barring breakdown of the couple, marriage of the mother to a third party, etc.


(Did you see my Hill/Monck Coke/McCock update? Them being the classic example of people who used any old name they liked. ;) I found a living breathing McCock!)

Janey - I don't think naming practices of your Monck mob are examples of anything normal - well, flavor of the month, perhaps.

Hello Everyone

Firstly thanks for all of your input, I'm sorry I have been away from the computer and now I see all of your postings I just want to explain, I live in Australia and we are 9 hours ahead of you.

The only reason I have got on Genes tonight, early morning actually (time here 3am) is that I can't sleep.

My original query was about Elizabeth U Paget who we could find no marriage or death for. Her brother George always believed he was an only child. We now have Elizabeth U's birth certificate and the mother is Agnes Paget (nee Ribchester) which we suspected, however no information on the father, we know Elizabeth U was not George's daughter as he was away at war from 1915 - 1920.

The birth certificate show the name in the second column as Elizabeth Unsworth, Elizabeth being the first or christian name as we call it and then Unsworth as the middle or second name.

From this I have assumed that Unsworth was probably the name of the father, as this has happened in the family before.
There is no record of an Elizabeth Unsworth registered as being born in any County in OND quarter of 1916, there is one for 1917 but that is not the one I am looking for.

There is a death for a baby Elizabeth Unsworth in Warrington in the JFM quarter of 1917, as there is not a birth record for this child I am assuming it is our little Elizabeth U Paget who it would seem was adopted or given to another family to raise.

I think we need to get that death certificate, although I am not confident it will tell us anything except the informants name and we would more than likely not have a clue who they were.
Can anyone of you tell me if the birth mother would have to have been the informant or the people the child was with. What are the requirements for being an informant on the death certificate or are there not any requirements at all?

Taylor

Well, mgnv, I don't think I said they were ... or anything like ... They *are* excellent examples of the (quite common) practice of using any old name one liked.


My point is: Mary, daughter of the unmarried Mary Martin and James Jones, who is named on the certificate, **will appear in the GRO index** as Mary Jones, not Mary Martin.

That was the "automatic" I was referring to in my initial rundown that you objected to.

Yes, Taylor, that is pretty much what we have all been saying, eh?


I mentioned that I have the death certificate of a 16-yr-old child in 1896 where the informant is identified as "grandmother", but the child's father is named on the certificate.

I have another for an infant in the 1850s where either the father or both parents (I forget, I'd have to dig it out) are named. I believe the mother was the informant and is identified as such.

The informant's status in relation to the deceased will commonly be stated -- family relationship, if that was the case.

This really is not such a huge big deal! Go to the GRO website, register, fill out the form, charge the 7 pounds, less than $13 AUS, to your credit card, and before long you will know what the certificate says.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

All of us have to get certificates to answer questions.

Thanks Janey

I will order the certificate for Elizabeth and I think I will also order the certificate for Joseph who died in 1914 just to see what reason was given for their deaths.

Taylor

Taylor - re who can be informant. Check out:
http://www.thosedixons.net/certificates/deaths.html

Re:
Deaths Mar 1917 (>99%)
UNSWORTH Elizabeth 1 Warrington 8c 221


This family seems to have been overlooked:

Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1913
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
UNSWORTH Thomas BLACKFORD Emily Warrington, Civil Marriage Warrington R50/14
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/


Marriages Mar 1913 (>99%)
Blackford Emily Unsworth Warrington 8c 368
Law Florence M Sutton Warrington 8c 368
SUTTON John P Law Warrington 8c 368
Unsworth Thomas Blackford Warrington 8c 368

Births Jun 1913 (>99%)
Unsworth May Blackford Warrington 8c 342

Births Sep 1915 (>99%)
Unsworth Elizabeth Blackford Warrington 8c 291

Births Jun 1918 (>99%)
Unsworth Thomas Blackford Warrington 8c 245

Births Dec 1922 (>99%)
Unsworth Joseph Blackford Warrington 8c 223

Thanks mgnv

I didn't see your last post before I pm'd you. Will have to try the Electorol Roll avenue. Do you know if someone will be able to look it up for me on Genes or will I have to get someone to go to the Heywood, Rochdale or Bury Library to look it up???

Taylor