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Thanks mgnv

I didn't see your last post before I pm'd you. Will have to try the Electorol Roll avenue. Do you know if someone will be able to look it up for me on Genes or will I have to get someone to go to the Heywood, Rochdale or Bury Library to look it up???

Taylor

Re:
Deaths Mar 1917 (>99%)
UNSWORTH Elizabeth 1 Warrington 8c 221


This family seems to have been overlooked:

Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1913
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
UNSWORTH Thomas BLACKFORD Emily Warrington, Civil Marriage Warrington R50/14
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/


Marriages Mar 1913 (>99%)
Blackford Emily Unsworth Warrington 8c 368
Law Florence M Sutton Warrington 8c 368
SUTTON John P Law Warrington 8c 368
Unsworth Thomas Blackford Warrington 8c 368

Births Jun 1913 (>99%)
Unsworth May Blackford Warrington 8c 342

Births Sep 1915 (>99%)
Unsworth Elizabeth Blackford Warrington 8c 291

Births Jun 1918 (>99%)
Unsworth Thomas Blackford Warrington 8c 245

Births Dec 1922 (>99%)
Unsworth Joseph Blackford Warrington 8c 223

Taylor - re who can be informant. Check out:
http://www.thosedixons.net/certificates/deaths.html

Thanks Janey

I will order the certificate for Elizabeth and I think I will also order the certificate for Joseph who died in 1914 just to see what reason was given for their deaths.

Taylor

Yes, Taylor, that is pretty much what we have all been saying, eh?


I mentioned that I have the death certificate of a 16-yr-old child in 1896 where the informant is identified as "grandmother", but the child's father is named on the certificate.

I have another for an infant in the 1850s where either the father or both parents (I forget, I'd have to dig it out) are named. I believe the mother was the informant and is identified as such.

The informant's status in relation to the deceased will commonly be stated -- family relationship, if that was the case.

This really is not such a huge big deal! Go to the GRO website, register, fill out the form, charge the 7 pounds, less than $13 AUS, to your credit card, and before long you will know what the certificate says.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

All of us have to get certificates to answer questions.

Well, mgnv, I don't think I said they were ... or anything like ... They *are* excellent examples of the (quite common) practice of using any old name one liked.


My point is: Mary, daughter of the unmarried Mary Martin and James Jones, who is named on the certificate, **will appear in the GRO index** as Mary Jones, not Mary Martin.

That was the "automatic" I was referring to in my initial rundown that you objected to.

Hello Everyone

Firstly thanks for all of your input, I'm sorry I have been away from the computer and now I see all of your postings I just want to explain, I live in Australia and we are 9 hours ahead of you.

The only reason I have got on Genes tonight, early morning actually (time here 3am) is that I can't sleep.

My original query was about Elizabeth U Paget who we could find no marriage or death for. Her brother George always believed he was an only child. We now have Elizabeth U's birth certificate and the mother is Agnes Paget (nee Ribchester) which we suspected, however no information on the father, we know Elizabeth U was not George's daughter as he was away at war from 1915 - 1920.

The birth certificate show the name in the second column as Elizabeth Unsworth, Elizabeth being the first or christian name as we call it and then Unsworth as the middle or second name.

From this I have assumed that Unsworth was probably the name of the father, as this has happened in the family before.
There is no record of an Elizabeth Unsworth registered as being born in any County in OND quarter of 1916, there is one for 1917 but that is not the one I am looking for.

There is a death for a baby Elizabeth Unsworth in Warrington in the JFM quarter of 1917, as there is not a birth record for this child I am assuming it is our little Elizabeth U Paget who it would seem was adopted or given to another family to raise.

I think we need to get that death certificate, although I am not confident it will tell us anything except the informants name and we would more than likely not have a clue who they were.
Can anyone of you tell me if the birth mother would have to have been the informant or the people the child was with. What are the requirements for being an informant on the death certificate or are there not any requirements at all?

Taylor

Janey - I don't think naming practices of your Monck mob are examples of anything normal - well, flavor of the month, perhaps.

Ah - I was referring mostly to the actual registration, I think.

Mary Jane
child of the unmarried
Mary Martha Martin
and
John James Jones

would appear in the GRO index as Mary Jane Jones?

And also on the assumption that ordinarily people would want to appear legitimate and so would use the father's surname, e.g. marry under that surname and name that father. Barring breakdown of the couple, marriage of the mother to a third party, etc.


(Did you see my Hill/Monck Coke/McCock update? Them being the classic example of people who used any old name they liked. ;) I found a living breathing McCock!)

Janey - I don't agree. You say:

I believe that if the father of a child of unmarried parents was named on the certificate (i.e. if the father was present at the registration and consented), it would go:

child: Mary Jane
father: John James Jones
mother: Mary Martha Martin

and the child would automatically be Mary Jane Jones.

--------------------------------

I think the child would usually be known as Mary Jones, but Mary Martin is quite common too, and one even sees the child later using Mary Jones or Martin on statutory regos, etc.
I think the name that got used often depended on whether the father was around or not. My g gran had 3 younger brothers , so there's 4 difft surnames. The middle bro was named Andrew Jones, after his dad, and in the1851 census they're living with Andrew Snr's bro, although he's not around, and my gg gran's using her maiden name. The youngest bro was born shortly after the census, and named after his mum, so the youngest two full brothers had difft surnames. 16 years later, she marr Andrew Snr, and the youngest bro changed his name from Alex Martin to Alex Martin Jones.
I also have the converse example in my family. Here Mary Martha wed John, and Mary Jane Jones was born. The marr broke up - no divorce back then, but on the next census, Mary Martha is back to Mary M Martin, and Mary Jane is down as Mary JJ Martin, sim her bro. One went on to marry as William Jones and the other as Mary Jane Jones Martin.

I'm afraid I'm confused.

Taylor knows about George Paget 1915's marriage etc. George 1915 is her father (grandfather? known, anyhow) no?

George's brother Joseph died in infancy.

What names are you not finding a death/marriage for, Ellen?

Nobody's finding one for "Elizabeth U Paget". That's kind of the point.

Janey - Yeah, sloppy of me - I posted without refreshing. Actually, I did want to record the subdistrict info for later parish register checks.

Burial: 5 Dec 1933 St Saviour, Ringley, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Paget -
Died: 1 Dec 1933
Age: 76 years
Abode: 34 Seddon Lane Prestolee
Buried by: Wm. R. J. Higgitt
Register: Burials 1914 - 1960, Page 153, Entry 1220
Source: LDS Film 2356549

I am not finding a death or a marriage under those names

Taylor - I only did a free 1911 search, but they're the only ones around that look like they'ld wed in 1912 Bolton.
If it were my mob, I'ld want confirmation via dad's names from the m.cert.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure the earlier censuses are of the 1911 individuals.

There are a whole mess of feasible marrs of an Eliz Unsworth in Wigan/Leigh - hardly a world away from Bolton.

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
Baptisms: 13 May 1914 St Thomas, Dixon Green, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
Joseph Paget - Child of George Paget & Agnes
Born: 30 Mar 1914
Abode: 7 Short St.
Occupation: Side Piecer
Baptised by: A. J. Phillips
Register: Baptisms 1911 - 1921, Page 25, Entry 218
Source: Microfilm of register at Manchester Library

Baptisms: 21 Jul 1915 St Thomas, Dixon Green, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
George Paget - Child of George Paget & Agnes
Born: 10 Jun 1915
Abode: 7 Short St.
Occupation: Spinner
Baptised by: A. J. Phillips
Register: Baptisms 1911 - 1921, Page 36, Entry 320
Source: Microfilm of register at Manchester Library

Marriage: 23 Dec 1939 St Thomas, Dixon Green, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
[details pm'ed to Taylor (and Gavin)]

Burial: 4 Dec 1942 St James, New Bury, Farnworth, Lancashire, England
Louisa Alice Ann Padgett -
Age: 71
Abode: 162 Plodder Lane Farnworth
Buried by: W. H. Townsend Vicar
Register: Burials 1939 - 1952, Page 29, Entry 225
Source: Microfilm of register at Manchester Library

Burial: 27 Dec 1951 St Saviour, Ringley, Lancashire, England
Fred Paget -
Died: 23 Dec 1951
Age: 56 years
Abode: 39 St Kilda Avenue Kearsley
Buried by: W. B. Hodgkin Vicar of Prestolee
Register: Burials 1914 - 1960, Page 266, Entry 2128
Source: LDS Film 2356549

So now we have the Paget-Ribchester births posted three times! I just never understand this. I posted them, and the marriage, for info in my third post, then mgnv did, now Ellen has ...

Are you guys saying you can't trace the Paget line back from Joseph father of George et al.?


1881 in Shropshire:

Joseph Paget 23 - born: Lilleshall, Shropshire, stone miner
Elizabeth Paget 24 - born: Wrockwardine, Shropshire
Samuel Paget 5
Alfred Paget
Civil parish: Wrockwardine
Registration district: Wellington

Marriages Dec 1877
Paget Joseph Wellington, Sh. 6a 1557
Rowley Elizabeth Wellington, Sh. 6a 1557


1871

Benjamin Paget 43 - born: Wrockwardine, Shropshire, England
Elizabeth Paget 49
Mary Edge 24
Martha Edge 18
Thomas Paget 23
Hannah Paget 15
Joseph Paget 13
Elizabeth Paget 5
William J Edge 10 months
Honora Hayward 87 - lodger
Civil parish: Lilleshall
Registration district: Newport

Marriages Jun 1860
EDGE Elizabeth Newport Sh 6a 1439
PAGET Benjamin Newport Sth 6a 1439


1861

Benjamin Pagitt 34
Elizabeth Pagitt 40
Mary Pagitt 15
Richard Pagitt 13
Martha Pagitt 8
Thomas Pagitt 14
George Pagitt 12
Hanah Pagitt 5
Joseph Pagitt 4

Civil parish: Lilleshall
Registration district: Newport


I'm sure you have all that! So it's pre-civil registration you're going for?


Presumably Benjamin is the one in Wrockwardine in 1851 with parents Benjamin and Rebecca? Danged variations in DOB. There are two in 1841 in Wrockwardine ...

Name: Elizabeth U Paget
Mother's Maiden Surname: Ribchester
Date of Registration: Jan Feb Mar 1917
Registration district: Bury
Registration county: Lancashire
Volume Number: 8c
Page Number: 818 (click to see others on page)


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Name: Joseph Paget
Estimated birth year: abt 1914
Year of Registration: 1914
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 0
District: Bolton
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 393 (click to see others on page)


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Name: Joseph Paget
Year of Registration: 1914
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Mother's Maiden Name: Ribchester
District: Bolton
County: Greater Manchester, Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 687 (click to see others on page)


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