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Great , so the new family name appears to be Hornby. The family dont seem to be very good at remembering . By the way I am new to the thread so learning as I am going Thanks

A possibility ...

http://www.britishmedals.us/files/rgr.htm

* Index of Men of the Royal Garrison Regiment (1901-1905) *

"This is yet another of my on-going projects. To date I have indexed nearly 5000 men of the RGR who enlisted from 1901 until the demise of the unit in 1905. Some of these men (normally those in South Africa) continued to serve past 1905, indeed a handful were still in service by the start of WW1. They formed 5 Battalions in total, serving in the UK, Malta, Gibraltar, Canada & South Africa and freed up thousands of regular troops for service in the 2nd Boer War.
The index below contains the RGR Number, Name, Place of Birth and Former unit where known. I have more details in my on-going files."

1088 Thomas Finlay Belfast ELR


It's likely that this is a different TF, but you never know, he might have chosen to lie about his place of birth for whatever reason. In the famous (hereabouts) tale of my gr-grfather, his brother-in-law decided to tell the world and his descendants that he was born in Scotland, when his family had in fact shifted to Wales three generations earlier.

That's okay, you keep learning, I'll keep going. ;)

I think there isn't a lot more to find, though, unless you're wanting to track down his sisters and stepsisters. He likely was off in some outpost of empire in 1901, and that becomes guesswork without specialized searching in military archives.

As for his father now -- when you say "the Hudson", you do mean Hudson Bay in northern Canada, and not the Hudson River in New York State in the US? ;)

A death on Hudson Bay c1871 ... I fear that any record there might have been would be next to impossible to locate. For starters, it is bordered by Quebec, Ontario, Manitoba, Nunavut -- those being the present-day names for parts of the territory. It was unorganized territory at the time, and I would doubt there would even have been records. You can have a look:

http://maps.google.ca/maps

Even now the area bordering it is extremely sparsely populated.


It's always possible that he simply deserted the family, not necessarily even by leaving the country, and may even have been living at the time of Rose Ann's remarriage.

Your question about Hudson bay or River is one that I have queried.,especially as in later years 2 of his granddaughters went to New York! Majority verdict Cananada but there was one dissenting voice hence my hesitation. By the way he had to have left uk about july 1870 as His son Thomas was born April 1871 had he left her pregnant. Witnesses at Thomas and Rosanna's wedding were James Finlay and Ann McCluskey.
One theory as yet not proven is was James his brother and did the family traditition of the eldest son being named after the father mean that possibly there was an elder brother called John. Rosanna had 2 sisters ?names and they were supposed to have been known as the threee beauties.
A couple of other facts Thomas was supposed to have gone down the mines aged 11 would this tie in with living in South Shields?
I was also under the impression from elder relatives that he was a t some time in the Northumberland Fusiliers.
Apparently he remembers being in the Union Workhouse at about the age of 5, What would have caused a change in circumstances to let them move out of the workhouse. They definitely weren't still there in the 1881 census.
He came back to Newcastle/Gateshead after the Booer war Why

The change of circumstances would be the mother's remarriage:

Marriages Dec 1879
Finlay Rose Ann Tynemouth 10b 297
Hornby Thomas Tynemouth 10b 297

They definitely weren't in the workhouse in the 1881 census, yes -- they were together as the Hornby household, which I posted on page 1 last night!

And of course the couple might have got together before the marriage, since Thomas Hornby's wife had died earlier:

Deaths Sep 1876
HORNBY Elizabeth 42 Tynemouth 10b 98

if that's the right death, which it seems to be.

So in 1876, young Thomas was 5.

Rose Ann may have had to satisfy some requirement for having Thomas Sr declared dead. Last seen summer or later in 1871, 7-year rule ...

If T Sr really was a trapper, Hudson Bay is the choice. I don't think much trapping was going on around the Hudson River by then, not that someone would have emigrated to get into.

The military unit I found T Jr in, in 1891, was a Rifles, so Northumberland Fusiliers would be consistent. You could try googling Northumberland Fusiliers and finding whether there are any archives or such, but generally you'll find that records of "simples soldats", ordinary soldiers, from that period, are not to be found.

I would get the Finlay-Hornby marriage certificate to see whether it says anything about Rose Ann's status.

Why would he not go back to Newcastle/Gateshead after he went home from SA? It was his home region, no? Where he was in 1891 was just a military posting.


FannyByGaslight -- enough magic for you? ;)

I have googled Northumberland Fusiliers and they were in action in 2nd Boer War. There weren't any militia lists on that particulat website. I haven't had a chance to take it further

Cant find Thomas Finlay in the Barracks in 1891 Hampshire. Do have a folio reference Janey for this entry. I have tried many different ways on find my past
Gina

Here you go.

RG12/938, it's page 14 - I'm actually useless at these numbers. Ancestry allows you to search by Folio No. but it doesn't offer that info, and the image gives only the RG12/938 and the page says Page 14.

In case it helps, here's the list of other names on the page.

Fredk Conson 40
Margaret Conson 39
James Conson 13
Mary Conson 11
Michael Conson 10
Margaret Conson 8
Francis Conson 4
Charles Cotterill 18
James Cotterill 19
Fredk Field 18
Thomas Finlay 19
Walter Gallard 32
Walter Gatch 24
Charles Thos Harper 26
John Henderson 20
Cecil Hickman 20
Peter Jeffs 24
James Jones 22
Land John 23
Herbert Lawrence 18
Charles McBride 18
Henry Wm Morgan 22
Robert Jno Pestell 30
Thos Hy Pritchard 18
Sidney Ratley 19
George Joseph Shipley 18
John Simons 18
Fredk Steer 22
William Stone 20
Williams Stuttles 25
Mark Warwick 19
Geo Wm Henry Webb 18
Fredk White 18

and it's

Civil parish: St Thomas
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England
Registration district: Winchester
Sub-registration district: Winchester
ED, institution, or vessel: The Barracks

Janey asks

FannyByGaslight -- enough magic for you? ;)


Fanny says

I guess it will do.

Thanks. I am sending for wedding certificate for second marriage so should have clarification on her status ie widow or not! Found several websites for shipping lines to Canada - will continue to search for Daddy.
Any idea where workhouse records are kept.?
Also found a John Finlay in 1861 census in Westgate area of Newcastle, same area as the workhouse and where Ellen McGough future wife of elusive Thomas lived. Next step to try and tie them all together!
Any spare magic
Gina

I have got the marriage certificate for rose Ann. This confirms that she did remarry in 1879. This was to Thomas Hornby. Many thanks for the lead. I still have had no luck with finding any more information about her 1st husband Thomas Finlay's death in Canada or indeed any birth or baptism records for I only know his father's name was John.
Elusive Thomas his son, born 1871 - I still have had no luck with his military service despite several b ooks on the Northumberland Fusiliers from the library
Gina

Aha, now I remember -- I was lost from your PM and I don't know whether I would even have been able to find the thread. ;)

So on the marriage certificate, Rose Ann was ... a widow? That was the question, and presumably that's the answer.

Hornby's wife had died in 1876. I would guess the couple got together before they married. I do wonder whether Rose Ann had to wait the seven years for a legal presumption of TF Sr being dead -- and whether that presumption then just became family knowledge that he was dead, when he may not actually have been.

It's also possible, of course, that he did die and she received some notice of it at some point. If she and Hornby didn't meet until closer to 1879, TF Sr could have died anytime after 1871. If she and Horby met shortly after 1876, them not marrying until 1879 suggests that TF Sr died later (if there was actual evidence of death).

It's unfortunate that the 1881 and 1891 censuses show no children born to Rose Ann and Hornby, which could have helped place the point at which they partnered.

There is one birth/death that could possibly be a child of theirs:

Births Sep 1877
Hornby Joseph William Tynemouth 10b 196
Deaths Dec 1877
HORNBY William Joseph 0 Tynemouth 10b 115

-- but there seems to have been other Hornby couples in the reg dist also having children at the same time (an Isabella born the same quarter as Hornby's daughter Louisa in 1873, e.g.). So it's equally if not more likely that the child Joseph was that couple's.

It might be worth having a look at the birth certiifcate to be sure. If the child was Rose Ann's, it would date her relationship with Hornby to 3 years before their marriage.

Hornby's wife died Q3 1876, a year before the birth of Joseph in Q3 1877, and over 3 years before the Rose Ann + Hornby marriage in Q4 1879.

It would be a stroke of luck (for you) if Joseph was theirs, as it would indicate either that TF Sr was known to be still living or that his whereabouts was not known and Rose Ann was awaiting the statutory 7 years for a presumption of death in order to marry.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,331221.0.html

"Presumption of Death is a common-law presumpton that someone has died if they have been missing for seven years, or by proof of other reasonable grounds (e.g. they were on a ship that sank). An application has to be made to a court for them to be declared dead. In the case of a spouse a remarriage will be valid even if the first spouse reapears.

The presumption of death after the unexplained absence of seven years developed after 1800. Prior to that date, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, an absent person was presumed to be living even though he might have been ninety or one hundred years old at the time a question arose."

There is discussion suggesting this isn't technially correct -- it wasn't actually a presumption of death, it was a provision that if someone had absented themselves and not been in contact for seven years, the other spouse could legally remarry. Either way, it would have covered Rose Ann's situation, it seems:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,321257.msg2020178.html#msg2020178

Section 22 of the 1828 Act and Section 57 of the 1861 Act states:
".......Provided, that nothing in this section contained shall extend to any second marriage contracted elsewhere than in England and Ireland by any other than a subject of Her Majesty, or to any person marrying a second time whose husband or wife shall have been continually absent from such person for the space of seven years then last past, and shall not have been known by such person to be living within that time ..."


So by 1876 or 1877, Rose Ann would not have had her seven years, but by 1879 she did -- or she had learned of TF Sr's death.

I would spend your money ;) and get the Joseph William Hornby birth cert to see whether it helps.

You mentioned Rose and her sisters -- not sure whether you're wanting to trace them. This looks like Rose in 1861.

Name: Rose Mc Lean
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Servant
Where born: Ireland

Civil parish: Westgate
County/Island: Northumberland

John Blacklock 47
Susan Blacklock 48
Luke Blacklock 19
Reuben Blacklock 14
Amy Blacklock 9
Richmond Blacklock 6
Anne Blacklock 3
Blanche Blacklock 4 Mo
Rose Mc Lean 14

The question of a child is interesting. The other path I have tried to follow is when they left the workhouse.Was it to go to a job? Thomas junior remembered being in the workhouse at about age 5! I have tried the poor house book by Peter? but all that did was take me round in circles! Rose Ann also learnt to sign her name in the 11 years from her 1st marriage. She signed her 2nd marriage certificate but only entered her x on the first
Gina

It would be pretty unusual to find records of individuals in workhouses for that era.

Thomas at age 5 -- assuming that means he was only there for a brief period? -- does coincide with the year Hornby's first wife died. Hornby was left with daughters aged about 10 and 6. A new wife (or partner) could have been fairly high on his priority list, and he and Rose Ann might well have got together not long after, since of course she was in a bad situation without a husband as well. That's why I'm thinking that either she didn't receive news of TF Sr's death until later, or she waited the statutory seven years to marry -- or they would have married earlier, assuming that partnering with Hornby is the reason she left the workhouse c1876.

In 1871, Hornby was a Marine Store Dealer (selling provisions, I believe that would be), with quite middle-class neighbours -- grocer, inkeeper, carpenter. In 1881 his occupation was Mariner. Rose may have married up and acquired some literacy skills as a result?

Hornby also had a 3-yr-old son John T in 1871 shown as born in North Shields, which was in Tynemouth dist:

Births Mar 1869 ?
HORNBY John Thomas Tynemouth 10b 156

I don't see a death before 1881 and this 1881 census record matches him:

Name: John Hornby
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Where born: North Shields
Civil parish: York Marygate St Olave
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: York
Street Address: "Industrial School" Marygate

Seems rather odd. A problem child maybe?

Matches again with the 1901:

Name: John T Hornby
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1869
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary J
Where born: North Shields, Northumberland, England

Civil parish: Preston
Town: North Shields
County/Island: Northumberland

John T Hornby 32 - machinists turner
Mary J Hornby 32
John Hornby 3

Marriages Sep 1897
Gray Mary Jane Newcastle T. 10b 208
Hornby John Thomas Newcastle T. 10b 208

The best choice I see for him in 1891 is as John Thos Hornby, a farm servant aged 23 in Pilling, Lancashire. There is a John Thomas Hornby born 1867 in Garstang reg dist. And he shows in 1881 as John Thomas Hornby in Pilling, so that guess for our JTH in 1891 would be wrong.


Just tossing in other stuff that might be interesting to track down.

Two people at GR have John Hornby born 1869 in Newcastle Upon Tyne / Northalnd, Newcastle, in their trees. Numerous people also have John Hornby born 1867/1868/1869 in Pilling, Lancashire.

Someone also has Thomas Hornby born 1840 in Sunderland. That might be someone to contact. And she has his wife Elizabeth Bowmaner, 1835 in North Shields, although others have her as 1837 or 1838 in Durham/Northumberland.

Would Rose Ann have needed money to have her husband declared dead or would this have happened through the state?
On her wedding certificate to Thomas Hornby he is listed as a Waterman, i assume this equates to a Mariner on the next census. They are listed as widow and widower - i forgot to put that in earlier.
Gina

I'm afraid I don't know about the mechanisms -- you could try some googling! The legislation is framed as a defence against bigamy, I think, from what I read. So you might not have had to do anything when you married, you could just have relied on the absence if anyone challenged the marriage, maybe.

I would expect a person would have just had to make a declaration to the marrying authority, maybe with a witness to corroborate that the spouse had not been heard from or of for the seven years. ?