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Thanks Quoy - Harvey is a relative - he pinched all that from my tree.

xxxxx mick

Hi
just thought I would mention this tree on Ancestry. Harvey /Nelson tree has your family on, also the photograph of Charles Winterton has been saved to the Collins family tree

Or wish that my father had asked his father a few more probing questions.
Or maybe he did know the true story but covered it up as it was so scandulous!

OK


so that answers those two questions!!

IF they went to the trouble of baptising and registering her, then one would think that they would also have registered her death and had a burial service


............... unless things were in such a turmoil that they forgot.

OR she was immediately handed over to a wet nurse because momma was ill



Oh .................. don't you wish we could have a conversation with some of our ancestors sometimes!!




sylvia

Hi Sylvia

I have the original hand written Scottish birth certificate, - it says born 6.30 PM on 2 May 1887 at Creshill(?) Barracks, South Leith - registered by father on 3 May 1887.

I have checked all Charles's siblings and all of Mary Jane's that I can locate on the 1891 & 1901 censuses.

xxxxxx mick

You say you have 1891 Census for all Charles siblings


What about for Mary Jane's siblings?



sylvia

I'm tending to the theory that she was put into care of some sort ........ assuming she lived for a period after birth


and that her name on a census will be either left blank, as initials only, or put under another surname


or that she died and for some reason has not been registered.



It may well be an unsolvable problem.



EDIT: I've just picked up on thsi posting of yours

Aploogises about the baptism - the baptism record I have is for the 1st wife showing she was a member of the church when she got married.



Does this in fact mean that you don't know whether the child was born alive?


Are the two entries on family search the only record?
Both are the same ..... she was baptized on 2 May 1887 at Leith, from a CD-ROM from familysearch.


where did that information come from?




sylvia

Aunty
I have checked his army records again- No evidence that he ever went anywhere near Ireland! He served in Malta 1893-1895, then Jamiaca 1899-1901.

xxxx mick

Promise you won't yell!!! You don't by any chance know what part of Ireland they might have gone to, if it is that they actually went to Ireland. I'm asking because there are lots and lots of lists of obituaries available to search, and by year. I have just done the one for Limerick because there was an accidental drowning listed. Nope nothing for JE Winterton.

Just so you know what I am talking about here is the link. And I have no idea where Limerick is apart from Ireland. Twas just a thought.


http://www.limerickcity.ie/Library/LocalStudies/Obituaries deathnoticesinquestreportsfuneralreportsetcfrom TheLimerickChronicle/1897incomplete/

After a search I have come up with virtually nothing. There does not seem to be any wreck or disaster at sea between Scotland and Ireland in 1897. This is the site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shipwrecks

and these are the only two which are near to the date. And southampton isn't any good is it that's down south. Going to try to find info about the other one.

State of Louisiana a passenger liner ran aground on 28 December 1878 on Hunter Rock

LSWR SS Stella passenger steamer from Southampton to Guernsey ran onto the Casquets reef 30 Mar 1899 (105 dead).

I am trying to prove your theory that "lost at sea" was a convenience!!

Well the 1888 one is way out of date and the other one no good. What exactly does "drowned at sea" mean. Well other than the obvious ship wreck or fell overboard.

Errr yes Sylvia- I do know that tree, its mine actually! lol

xxxxx mick

Mick

Public Family Tree on ancestry ..... do you know about this?

Winterton/Butcher/Mayhew/Bloomfield 28/9/09
Owner: ashburnham_1

Mary Jane Williamson

Timeline

1862
Birth
Scalloway Shetland Scotland

1862
26 Jun
Christening
Tingwall Shetland Scotland

1886
10 Mar
Age: 24
Marriage to Charles George Winterton
North Leith, Scotland

1897
16 Sep
Age: 35
Death
Lambeth London
Drowned at sea?

Parents

Thomas Williamson
1829 –

Catherine Laurenson
1830 – 1891


Siblings

Laurence Laurenson Williamson
1853 –

David Williamson
1856 –

Jane Williamson
1859 – 1861


Spouse & Children

Charles George Winterton
1859 – 1922


Jane Evelyn Winterton
1887 – 1897




Some different suggestions (died at sea???) ...... but seems to indicate Jane lived to ca 1897. Guesswork????



Jane Evelyn Winterton

Timeline

1887
2 May
Birth
South Leith, Scotland

1897
ABT
Age: 10
Death
Ireland?
Drowned at sea?






sylvia

Mick

addled brain?


that's how I felt after helping my friend drench sheep in 27C!

That was near Mudgee 10 years ago!

Mick


There were treatments for syphilis going back hundreds of years ....... but you're right, it was basically incurable. Arsenic was one of the commonest treatments.

One has to wonder where she caught it.

If she caught it from her mother, she would probably have been dead or in an asylum well before the age at which she married your grandfather.

Tertiary syphilis usually develops 1-10 years after infection ........ but it has been known to take up to 50 years


I remember helping someone 2 or 3 years ago, and the man's first wife had a baby and then died within the year of syphilis, about 2-3 years after marrying. He then married her sister ...... and they went on to have quite a few children. I cannot remember what happened to the child of the first wife.



sylvia

Anything else I've missed, I'm sorry.

I have just been rounding up goats for sale in 37 C heat,
and my brain is addled!


xxxxxxx mick

wow - where did all that come from!

She died of tertiary syphillis in 1897 aged 33.. Her husband my grandfather did not die of it nor did the second wife or the 3 children of the second marriage. Am iIright is assuming that syphillis was totaally incurable in the 19th C?
I assume she was infected in childhood and was no longer infectious when she met my grandfather?

Aploogises about the baptism - the baptism record I have is for the 1st wife showing she was a member of the church when she got married.

xxxxxx mick

Tertiary syphilis 10 years later -- most likely already infected by the time of the birth.

Mercury drops in newborn's eyes have been used for a long time to avert blindness, from the fetus acquiring the infection during delivery. Apparently (google google) it had been used to "treat" syphilis long before the 1800s - but I don't know whether it was regularly used in newborns at the time; I suspect not.

So the child might well have suffered from the infection, which can also be contracted during pregnancy.

http://www.marchofdimes.com/pnhec/4439_1206.asp

"untreated syphilis can cause stillbirth, newborn death or bone defects"

When you say "baptized soon thereafter" -- how soon?

Virtually immediate baptism can indicate the child was not expected to live. This was explained to me by the person who found two baptisms for a brother of a grx2grfather of mine circa 1820 -- the first "private" indicating he wasn't expected to survive, the second public when he apparently did.

Janey, put on your Scottish kilt and think!

Thanks goodness. About time you put your dibs in.

For Sylvia. I thought she only died 12 months after the baby was born. Was very late when I looked at it last night. I have those little squares on my forehead from falling asleep on the keyboard.

Right that changes things.

Mick why do you believe she may have been retarded. Ten years is an awful long time after a birth to consider that the infection was there when the child was born. Assuming the cause of the retardation was the mother's illness.

Hey! I suppose I should have called dibs? Sheesh, Mick, omniscient I may be, but omnipresent, I haven't mastered yet. I thought I was talking to Sylvia and AuntyS elsewhere, but I guess I was talking to myself, because they're not there, they're here.