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Hi Rose

I found Frederick was living with Samuel Birch and his wife and son on the 1971 census on Find my Past

RG Number - RG10
Piece - 2108
Folio - 84
Page - 9
Reg district - Plympton St mary
Address - Saltram Point, Plympton St Mary

I have been in touch with the Royal Marine Museum and archive but they say it could take up to three months to reply but if they can't find an answer they will not reply.!!!!!! I Might have to go down to the Portsmouth archive to see if I can find out for myself.

Anne

I can see him listed on this site too. What's the piece, folio and page number? Ancestry must be missing some pages.

The only thing I can think of is he would have been 21 when he joined the marines. Perhaps there was some age restriction and it's possible he knew what year he was born but not his actual birthdate.

Rose

I have just noticed that you said that Frederick was not showing on the Ancestary 1871 census. I found him on "Find my Past"
Anne

Thank you Rose for all your help.

You have proved what I suspected, that he was illegitimateand I agree with what you have said that Louisa and Frederick Parr have to be his parents as there is no one else and the dates sort of match. Why did he use a completely birth date when joining up? this is still very odd!

How I prove that Louisa was my great grandfather's mother, I assume it is imposable,.
Thanks again for your help

Anne

Hi Rose
This is a surprise, I did not realise that it was possible to register a baby twice and as the numbers are the same I assume they were entered at the same time. Were two birth certs issued? seems very strange.
Anne

Frederick isn't showing on Ancestry for the 1871 census.

Rose

Hi Anne,

Louisa didn't marry Thomas until 1863:

Marriages Dec 1863
Fry Thomas Plympton 5b 407
WEBBER Louisa Plympton 5b 407

The son was registered under both names:

Births Jun 1858
Weber Thomas Henry Fry Plympton 5b 221
Fry Thomas Henry Fry Plympton 5b 221

Rose

1871 census
I have found a Frederick Webber birth date 1852 living at Saltram Point. This is interesting because Saltram House is now in the National Trust and his occupation is farm labourer. He is a boarder living next door to the coach house.
My great grandfather's Service papers put his occupation as groom but no address was mentioned then.

You say that Louisa had another child Thomas Henry Webber/ Fry. It looks as if she had to marry this time!!!! I have found a Louisa Fry on the 1871 census married to a Thomas Fry with a son Thomas H living at Fore Street Plympton St Maurice.

Yes that is my great grandfathers death. I will get his death cert.
Thanks your help

I can't find him in 1871 and I can't find Louisa either. She had had another child at that point Thomas Henry Webber/Fry but they're all missing.

Rose

Is this his death?

Deaths Mar 1924
Webber Frederick 72 Medway 2a 1183

This puts him born 1852 or 1851 if he hadn't had his birthday yet.

Rose

With a birth date of May 1853 he should be listed as being born 1854 as the censuses were taken in March/April.

Rose

Yes you are right , I had not looked at the census like this!! I meant that the birth date continues on the family records.

1881 census birth year 1853 married to Susan with 3 children
1891census birth year 1852 Married to Susan with 7 live children one of which my grandfather
1901 census birth year 1852 widower but I know that Susan died in 1918
1911 census birth year 1852 Married living with Annie Burling who he married in 1919
I wonder what he put on the 1921 census?? he died in 1924

Sadly he told his children that their mother had died, for she was in a Mental Hospital

Thank you Rose for pointing this out, the year of his birth gets closer to 1851 the older he gets.

Anne,

I still think that is your man. There are no other Frederick Webber's born Plympton and there's no marriage or death for Frederick John Parr.

You said his "birth year of 1853 continues on all the future docs" but that's not true for the census records.

Rose

Thanks Rose this is great

I have obtained the birth cert of Frederick Webber...
he was born 27th October 1851 the son of Louisa Webber of Jones Cottage Plymston St Mary. He was named Frederick John Parr with fathers name left blank. But I am not sure that this is my great grandfather.

I could understand if my great grandfather had increased his age to be able to get into the Royal Marines but he made himself younger, and his birth year of 1853 continues on all the future docs. Also I would have thought that if you changed your birth date you would keep the day and the month the same.

Anne

Margaret asked a good question---- was there age restrictions for joining the Royal Marines at that time. Perhaps there was an upper limit. Can anyone help on this?

Think this is the family in 1841.
1841 England Census
about William Webber
Name: William Webber
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1796
Gender: Male
Where born: Devon, England

Civil parish: St Mary Plympton
Hundred: Plympton
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation: View image

Registration district: Plympton St Mary
Sub-registration district: Plympton
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
William Webber 45
Caroline Webber 45
Grace Webber 14
Caroline Webber 9
Louisa Webber 8


Now in 1851, Louisa is a servant on a farm and next door is a Frederick Parr. Make of that what you will but Parr was a middle name on that 1851 birth.

Rose

Perhaps his the son of one of their unmarried daughters:

1851 England Census
about Catherine Webber
Name: Catherine Webber
Age: 60
Estimated birth year: abt 1791
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: William
Gender: Female
Where born: Plympton St Mary, Devon, England
Civil parish: Plympton St Mary
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Registration district: Plympton St Mary
Sub-registration district: Yealmpton
ED, institution, or vessel: 4a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 104
Household Members: Name Age
William Webber 61
Catherine Webber 60
Catherine Webber 21

Rose

He has to be the one with his grandparents in 1861.

Births Dec 1851
WEBBER Frederick John Parr Plympton St M 9 412

Rose

I can't help feeling is dob on his service records isn't correct. A birthday at the end of May would show him born 1854 on census records but he's listed as 1852 in 1891 and 1901.

Rose

Not many clues there. The witnesses were from her side of the family.

Rose

I think I put this on the wrong thread--- should I change it now!!