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Read with interest the above post. My Great Grandmother was Mary Ann Buckland she was initially married to Michael Dowling a Colour Sergeant. He died in 1855. His father was reportedly an Excise Officer possible in Ireland. My Grandmother (May Rickman Buckland) was born in 1901. She spoke of her 'brother' coming to visit their mother when she was dying in hospital bringing with him his wife Grace. Like you I have not managed to find any reference to William Harris, Naval Engineer, and did wonder if perhaps this was a ficticious name. If you have any further information I would be most interest.

Hello Carla,
An old aunt from Hastings left us a lovely sideboard when she died in 2000. While cleaning it out recently, I noticed a ticket at the back :-
T Mepham & sons, Bexhill furniture removal and storage.
Any family connections?
Sheila

Hi Carly,

Thanks for letting us know the outcome. It is nice to be right (For once) lol

I'm in the middle of trying to sort out quite a complex family tree at the moment but I will keep looking in to your thread and if I can add or suggest something then I will.

Good luck

Yay us! and what luck that he was registered in the father's surname.

No marrige though, it seems. He may have had an existing marriage.


Time to go hunting again now for him ...

Hi Janey / Jonesey

Birth certificate arrived this morning for Horace Dowling!

Father - William Harris - Naval Engineer
Mother - Mary Ann Harris prev Dowling prev Rickman

So looks like you were spot on with the mother but we now need to look for who William is - not sure if she married William too or if just took his name for the sake of the birth - the fact that Horace reverted back to Dowling may mean parents weren't married I guess?

The search continues - thanks again for your help

Carly

Cool I didn't know about that site - will check it out

I've also just found out about the Para community website - these threads are so good for finding help - especially when you're still learning the ropes!

As soon as certificate arrives I'll let you know!

Thanks

If we're interested??

We'll have the thread in the BF file and will be harassing you for the results if you don't beetle back here with them. ;)


Btw, I never did get around to saying that my first reaction to the occupation on the marriage certificate was the same as Jonesey's: "colour sergeant".

I checked the Imperial Yeomanry lists at Kevin Asplin's site, for men in the Anglo-Boer war, in case the father ended up there, but didn't find a Harris to fit, although there were two Frank Harris-s and one F.

http://www.britishmedals.us/files/iyh.htm

Thanks guys really appreciate your help

I'll order the birth certificate today for Horace Dowling Harris and let you guys know if you're interested

I must admit the Scottish records seem so much better than the English - I managed to fly back 8 generations because they gave me so much detail. English ones seem to be a bit trickier!

Well thanks again for your help - i'm sure i'll be back again next time I get stuck!!

We do agree and we're pretty sure!

It surely would be nice if the birth certificate named a father. But I wouldn't count on that.

Remember, Harris was his surname in th birth record -- Dowling was his middle name. I'd guess that his mother then used Dowling as his surname, since it was her own until she married Edmund Buckland.

A GR member has Edmund Buckland born 1843 in Barkham, Surrey, in his tree -- could be worth a contact. I'd get the Harris birth cert and see what it says, and then maybe also contact the person who corrected Francis Amos Harris's place of birth at Ancestry.

No luck identifying that Francis Amos Harris in terms of birth, marriage or census -- but oh dear, did Mary Ann lose another one?

Deaths Jun 1892
Harris Francis 34 [c1858] Hungerford 2c 167

That would fit.


Dying to know what the birth certificate says!


edit -- I'll place a side bet on "my" Francis. ;)

Births Mar 1853
Harris Francis Newbury 2c 207


1871 in Thatcham:

Francis Harris 58
- the Francis in the Ancestry member's tree I referred to above; that user has also corrected his place of birth.
Jane Harris 57
John Harris 24
> Francis Harris 18 - bricklayer
Samuel Harris 14


edit again - just getting a bit obsessive here, I searched for other births with middle name Dowling between first husband's death and marriage to second husband -- a long stretch. This one struck me as possibly somewhat interesting:

Births Mar 1888
HARRIS Frederick Dowling Portsea 2b 514

and unfortunately ...
Deaths Mar 1910
HARRIS Frederick Dowling 22 London C. 1c 16

but can't find him in between.

Carly,

It is just a gift that we have for being nosey. A suspicious nature helps a bit as well.

At birth he was registered as a Harris (Horace Dowling Harris) so the certificate may give you the fathers details and give you his mothers maiden name:

Births Jun 1891 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harris Horace Dowling Hungerford 2c 262

I am guessing that he (or most probably his mother) dropped the Harris from his name when she split from his father.


Good luck with the rest of your tree.

You guys amaze me how you find all this stuff.

So do we think this is the correct Horace?

Registration district: Kingston
Sub-registration district: Surbiton
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 252
Household Members: Name Age
Edmund Buckland 56
Maryann Buckland 42
May Buckland 1
Horace Dowling 9
Hannah Forrester 40

Mother was Mary Ann Rickman - married Michael Dowling who died in 1885. Horace Dowling was born in 1891 - possibly with teh father's surname being Harris?

So would there be any reason why he never used the middle name Harris on anything?

Are we pretty sure this is him - I guess I need to order his birth certificate to see who it shows as the father?!

Really appreciate all of your help on this

Janey,

I agree again, that (Francis Amos) looks like the prime suspect to me as well.

There were only 3 Harris males in Hungerford according to the census and the others may have been a little too old (54) or too young (15). Thats assuming that Mary Ann wasn't in to older men or toy boys. (lol)

So there we are, she had her son Horace with someone else, presumably a Harris.

The only Harris I like for the job, in Hungerford in 1891, is:

Name: Francis Amos Harris
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Shatcham, Berkshire, England
[Thatcham]
- single, occupation painter

Civil parish: Hungerford


Head of household is an innkeeper/publican.

There is no record of a Francis Amos Harris being born, marrying or dying.

It's interesting that an Ancestry user corrected the place of birth, in November 2009. That user last logged in last month and could presumably be contacted through the Ancestry system. His/her tree shows a Francis Harris born 1813, father Amos - likely the father and grandfather of the above Francis Amos Harris ...

Mary Ann's hubby didn't last long:

Deaths Dec 1885 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DOWLING Michael 33 Kingston 2a 197

Yes indeed -- because I am having no luck whatsoever tracing Mary Ann in earlier censuses, or anybody else around Hungerford who might connect up with her! So whether Harris [edit - meant Dowling] was her birth or previous married surname - whether she was unmarried or a widow - is a crucial bit of info!

She could have been unmarried or a widow when she had Horace in 1891, of course -- she was over 30, so a previous marriage is quite possible, but Horace might not have been a child of that marriage.


Oops, I lied. Here she is in 1891:


Name: Mary A Dowling
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Milford On Sea, Hampshire, England
- image shows marital status *widowed*

Civil parish: Hungerford

William Smith 46
Emma Smith 34
Elizabeth M Smith 10
Rheuben Smith 7
Florence R Smith 3
Arthur Smith 1
Winifred A Smith 2/12
Mary A Dowling 33


How ... interesting ...


1881

Name: Mary Ann Rickman
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Relation: Servant
Where born: Milford, Hampshire, England
Occupation: Cook Dom

Civil parish: Kingston On Thames
County/Island: Surrey

Authur W.B. Thompson 46
Frances Thompson 38
Frances C. Thompson 2
Charles W. Thompson 1
Mary Ann Rickman 23
Mary Ray 22


Marriages Jun 1884
> Dowling Michael Kingston 2a 496
FLINT James Kingston 2a 496
Hedges Mary Percy Kingston 2a 496
> Rickman Mary Ann Kingston 2a 496


So it's looking like it was Horace's father who was the Harris.

Janey,

I had missed your full post. I agree, this is the Horace we have been looking for. A copy of the Buckland/Dowling marriage is now needed to see Mary Ann's status at the time of her marriage to Edmund.

Uh, Jonesey ... note where your Horace Dowling in 1911 was born ... and where Horace Dowling Harris was born ... ;)

(edit - I have to admit I didn't make that connection when I pounced on Horace Dowling Harris! Double good, now.)

Did you find a birth for your 1911 Horace Dowling maybe?

Here is Gracia's father in 1911. He has remarried:

MEPHAM, Frederick Head Married M 52 1859 Miller General And Stationary Driver Engn Heathfield Sussex VIEW
MEPHAM, Lucy Wife Married
6 years F 48 1863 Guildford Surrey VIEW
MEPHAM, Henry Son M 13 1898 School Heathfield Sussex VIEW
MEPHAM, Clarence Son M 10 1901 School Heathfield Sussex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
4868 Reference:
RG14PN4868 RG78PN210 RD72 SD1 ED11 SN135

Registration District:
Hailsham Sub District:
Herstmonceux Enumeration District:
11 Parish:
Heathfield

Address:
Sandy Cross Heathfield County:
Sussex

My money is on this Horace in 1911. Note his occupation:

DOWLING, Horace Logder Single M 19 1892 Butcher Hungerford VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
3508 Reference:
RG14PN3508 RG78PN131 RD40 SD2 ED11 SN259

Registration District:
Kingston Sub District:
Kingston Enumeration District:
11 Parish:
Kingston on Thames

Address:
21 Oaklea Passage Kingston upon Thames County:
Surrey

1901, Edmund is not his father, morelikely his step father:

Name: Horace Dowling
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1892
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Edmund
Mother's Name: Maryann
Gender: Male
Where born: Hungerford, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: Surbiton
Ecclesiastical parish: Surbiton Christchurch
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Kingston
Sub-registration district: Surbiton
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 252
Household Members: Name Age
Edmund Buckland 56
Maryann Buckland 42
May Buckland 1
Horace Dowling 9
Hannah Forrester 40

Marriages Dec 1897 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Buckland Edmund Kingston 2a 702
Dowling Mary Ann Kingston 2a 702

Only two births of an age to be your Horace's father:

Births Mar 1862
DOWLING Horoce Andover 2c 203
Births Sep 1874
Dowling Horace John Kingsclere 2c 212

The second one married in Kingsclere in 1897 and is in the 1901 with wife Ellen and young children. I don't see any record of the older one after that birth.


I wonder about this Horace in 1901:

Name: Horace Dowling
Age: 9
Estimated birth year: abt 1892
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Edmund
Mother's Name: Maryann
Gender: Male
Where born: Hungerford, Berkshire, England

Civil parish: Surbiton
Ecclesiastical parish: Surbiton Christchurch
County/Island: Surrey

Edmund Buckland 56
Maryann Buckland 42
May Buckland 1
Horace Dowling 9
Hannah Forrester 40


Marriages Dec 1897
> Buckland Edmund Kingston 2a 702
> Dowling Mary Ann Kingston 2a 702
McCaughie Racheal Amelia Kingston 2a 702
McCaughie Rachel Amelia Kingston 2a 702
Pelling Walter William J Kingston 2a 702

So that Horace would be a son of Mary Ann before her marriage to Buckland -- when she was unmarried, or to a previous marriage ...

He looks like the likeliest candidate, to me.


Here we are:

Births Jun 1891
Harris Horace Dowling Hungerford 2c 262


I think he gets my vote. ;)

A surname as a middle name is very commonly an indication of the surname of the father, where the parents were not married. So I suspect his father was Dowling, but he may or may not have been Horace; likely not. I don't see a Harris-Dowling marriage to fit.

I took a peek because my best friend is a Mepham, not the world's most common name. ;)

I'm suspecting Horace made up his father.

The marriage was in Q1 1914. This is the most likely candidate for Horace's birth:

Births Mar 1891
Dowling Horace William Newport, M. 11a 263

If the marriage was before his birthday, that would match with age 22.

There is no Horace Dowling marriage before that birth, and I don't see a Horace Dowling in 1891 or 1901 with father Horace.

People whose parents were not married quite commonly made up fathers when they married. A father with the same name as the party marrying (Horace and Horace, here) is sometimes a clue that this was the case. It might also be the case that the father's given name was correct, he just had a different surname.

This looks like that Horace in 1911 (and you can do the search there):

http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx

DOWLING HORACE 1891 20 Newport Monmouthshire

Next, search for surname Dowling living in Newport with Horace Dowling:

DOWLING RUTH 1855 56 Newport Monmouthshire
DOWLING WILLIAM 1852 59 Newport Monmouthshire

so it looks like not him. Hmmm.