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Nah, we owe you too for giving us something useful to do. ;)

If only Edith Margaret's marriage certificate gave an occupation for *her*. -- It doesn't, does it?!

I do think she is just the perfect prime candidate. Now unfortunately deceased, of course.

What is it you'd most like to do at this point -- trace Rose's ancestry or find living relations? Both depend on identifying Edith, of course, and maybe on finding living family in both cases to do that.

I'm off to await the arrival of an old beau from -- shut your eyes or be gobsmacked at the idea I'm this old -- 38 years ago, whom I haven't seen in almost that long, so I'll be looking back in latish on Saturday probably! (It's 4:30 in the afternoon here in central Canada now.)

Dear Janey and Victoria
I owe you for your time and help. I have deleted all Ball family connections as requested.

Ediths Margret Age on the marriage certificate dated 1934 is 18 spinster. father Fredrick Joseph Whithead Labouer

Ediths Father signed the certificate with R V Hopkins
in St John Church Fulham 13.3.1934

7 years ago I just started research an I made incorrect conculsions Edith in Aylesbuy was one.

Lesley .... ! Our question is:

Why Edith Whitehead of Aylesbury 3.3.1916 ?

There are gazillions of Edith Whiteheads in England who could have been your Edith. What made you pick that one?

There's no point in trying to trace anything about her unless there's some reason to believe she's the right one!

It's intuitive to think that the one who was born and married in Fulham would be the right one, as I've suggested -- but that could equally well be flat wrong, and mere coincidence, of course.

Would you delete the info about the 1938 birth? That's someone who is very probably still living so it's not fair to be putting his details here, in the midst of a discussion of the personal life of the person who *could* be his mother. ;) That's why I just said, earlier, "Children of the marriage born in Fulham in 1935, 1938 and 1942", and sent you the details privately.

What we're missing from the Whitehead-Ball marriage certificate you have is the *age* of that Edith when she married -- to check against the 1916 Edith birth in Fulham, e.g. How old was the Edith who married Ball when she married?


Victoria notes that the Aylesbury Edith seems to have married Collins in Aylesbury in 1939. That's 6 years after Rose was born, and that Edith would have been 23ish when she married. Does that match with the story you have, of Edith being very young, preparing to marry, at the time someone spoke to her about Rose (who would have been 6 when that Edith married)?


For info, this is the death that best matches the Edith Whitehead born in 1916 in Fulham, who married Ball (the Ball-Whitehead child's birth cert you have gave her middle name, which is good, but you should still delete that now).

Name: Edith Margaret Ball
Birth Date: 21 Sep 1916
Death Registration Month/Year: Dec 1994
Age at death (estimated): 78
Registration district: Merton
Inferred County: Surrey
Register number: B32
District and Subdistrict: 2441
Entry number: 180


On Rose's birth cert -- there is *no* middle name for Edith? That wouldn't rule Edith Margaret out, as she may simply not have stated it.

Der Janey
Just to inform you that I have the Birth certificates for

Rose Mary Whitehead October 1933
an Edith Whitehead of Aylesbury 3.3.1916
Father Frederick Whitehead Mother was Annie Brockless

Edith and Ernest Marriage 13.3.1934
Raymond Samuel Ball mother formerly Edith Margaret Whitehead 10.5.1938.
I have the cert for Ernest must has missed filed the document
Regards Lesley

Dear Janey
Manty thanks for you help, just to confim my find I spoke to my sister and she claims that the Grandfather was a Jewller not a taylor in that case what would a Jewller need a shorthand hand typist for???

I was advise he as a taylor would a taylor need a short hand typist.

I could look up the diffrent companies in Fulham or Hammersmith for both Jewllers or Taylors to see if there is any information.

You have give me al the details of an Edith who came from Fulham I did not have that information.


Now I think that your information is correct and my investigation was rong the ceritifcate for Edith in Aylesbuiry is not correct

Lesley

Dear Victoria
Edith Whitehead was born in 6 Whitehall Row Aylesbury date of borth 3rd march 1916.

I am now total confused to what Edith is the correct one, 7 years ago when I statrted this search I could only find ONE in Edith in Aylesbury.
The Ball Family in Fulham may be the correct family if only I had a photo of Edith Ball this might help
Lesley

Yes, please.

Where is this information coming from - now and not before?

What is the national archives going to provide?

Why say something like "the birth cert of Edith that I have had a diffrent back ground" and not tell us what you're talking about? What birth, why that Edith, what is a background? Why not just answer the simple questions about how her name is given and whether her age is stated? We've been doing a fair bit here to try to solve the puzzle, but if you're witholding pieces of it, it's a dead letter.

What exactly makes you think the Aylesbury connection is correct?......Do you know for sure that your Edith came from there?

what is the exact DOB of Edith??? only one Edith Whitehead comes up in birth reg for Aylesbury first qtr 1916.

I have stumbled across a tree on ancestry that has an Edith born in Ayylesbury unfortunately does not give dates but I have been able to track through. This Edith married a Edward A Collins in Aylesbury 1939.

Dear Janey
You a have been a great support in both providing information and asking the question in writing.

YES YES the Taylor Industrie was mentioned however the birth cert of Edith that I have had a diffrent back ground.
Edith Whitehead was born in Alysbury Buckinghamshire 1916 Not Fulham. The Whiteheads in Alysbury I feel are a better match I could be incorrect.

If my Edith in Aylsbury dob 1916 is the correct one then she did not marry Ernist Ball of Fulham.

I will have to go to the nation archive a check out all the information that very one has given me

Many thanks lesley

I don't know how the answer would come! You need some certificates ...

I still don't understand why you had put the Whitehead-Ball children in your tree (when?) and not mentioned that in this thread. Is there some reason other than my suggestion here?

There is no way you will know whether the Whitehead-Ball marriage is the correct one without at least looking at the certificate to see what info is given for that Edith, and whether it matches the information you have been told (e.g. that she was very young), and seeing what else it might tell you that could be used to search for more info.

Dear Janey
Many thanks for all you help, I am not sure that the Ball family is the correct link? I will look at all the information that has been given to me and may be the answer will come.

Best Regards
Lesley

Lesley, you have two of the children of the Whitehead-Ball marriage in your tree.

I'm not understanding why you seem to be unaware, in this thread, of the Whitehead-Ball marriage, since you seem to be adopting it for your Edith by placing children of that marriage in your family tree ...

Re Edith Whitehead being very young: this birth would fit rather well:

Births Dec 1916
Whitehead Edith M Mitchell Fulham 1a 440

Hammersmith was in Fulham reg dist.

And this marriage, that I noted on page 1, would be that person:

Name: Edith M Whitehead
Spouse: Ernest S Ball
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1934
Registration district: Fulham
Registration county (inferred): London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 601

Children of the marriage born in Fulham in 1935, 1938 and 1942.

Births Dec 1908
Ball Ernest Samuel Fulham 1a 296

Name: Ernest Samuel Ball
Birth Date: 10 Nov 1908
Death Registration Month/Year: Jan 1984
Age at death (estimated): 75
Registration district: Fulham
Inferred County: London
Volume: 12
Page: 818


Edith would have been not yet 18 when she married, if my birth-marriage match for Edith M Ball is correct. I wonder whether she might have fibbed about her age when she married, and thereafter? The birth and marriage details would be well worth knowing.

Her birth quarter was Oct-Nov-Dec -- people often kept their correct birthday, even if they or their family didn't know / misrepresented their year of birth, and a birthday might be matched to a death record. For instance, an Edith born 6 Dec 1914 (correct quarter) died in 2005 in Lambeth; an Edith Mary born 26 Sep 1912 (likely registered next quarter) died in 1977 in Hounslow.

Just thought I'd add this possibility for Isaac:


Births Dec 1899
Superchinsky Isaac Whitechapel 1c 287


1901 in Whitechapel (mistranscribed):

Joseph Superchunitz 41 - slipper maker - born Poland
Annie Superchunitz 40
Deborah Superchunitz 19 - married as Deby Superchinsky
Sarah Superchunitz 13
Jane Superchunitz 8
Ephraim Superchunitz 5 - died 1927, indexed as Saperchinsky
Annie Superchunitz 4
>> Isaac Superchunitz 1

The household is in the 1901 as Superchinsky.


I don't see a marriage or death for Isaac Sup* to match.

Aha. Having found Ephraim's death, this is that Isaac's:

Name: Isaac Saperchinsky
Birth Date: 1899
Death Registration Month/Year: 1976
Registration district: Hendon
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 13
Page: 0524

I don't see a marriage in any similar name. Might he have used Supper as his public surname?

Another variant of the name:

Name: Abraham Supperchinsky
Spouse Surname: Stoller
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1922
Registration district: Mile End Old Town
Registration county (inferred): Middlesex
Volume Number: 1c
Page Number: 499

-- the children of that marriage are registered as Saperchinsky.

This could be of interest, if perhaps Rose's father was a son of the head of the firm? (By the way, do you know what the nature of the firm was?)

The Henry Supper who died in 1967 was born c1892.

In 1901 there is this household:


Bloomsbury St George and St Giles in The Fields

Isaac Supper 27 (it's 37) - occupation Ladies Tailor, born Poland
Annie Supper 36 - born Poland
Lily Supper 16 - born Poland
Solomon Supper 12 - born London
Henry Supper 8
Mark Supper 5
Rose Supper 1
+ servant (nurse) and numerous boarders


- father Isaac
- son Henry matches the 1967 death record
- Henry has a sister Rose

That Henry would also have been in his 40s in 1933.

Hi Lesley. There's only one death registered for an Isaac Supper:

Name: Isaac Supper
Death Registration Month/Year: 1943
>>> Age at death (estimated): 82 = dob c1861
Registration district: Willesden
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 584


He seems a little old for the job. ;) -- He would have been about 72 at the time of your mum's birth. Also, he died before the support paid for your mum ended, but it might have been continued by family or his estate, by will.

There's no record of a birth or marriage in that name. I do wonder whether "Supper" might have been an anglicization of a surname.


For instance:

- an Isaac Supperstein married in London in 1903
- an Isaac Jacob Super married in London in 1906
- an Isaac Supera was born in London in 1888
- an Isaac Superchinsky was born in London in 1899
- an Isaac Superia was born in London in 1891

Another possible surname I see in various BMD records is Supak.


I would strongly suggest that you get the two marriage certificates that look like strong possibilities for being Edith's marriage and see whether there is any info there that could confirm one of them. I don't think you answered whether your mum's marriage certificate gives an age (no middle name, I guess) for your Edith.

Dear Victoria
Great to hear from you I much appricate your kind help

Yes I have my mothers birth cert. the fathers name is not declared. Yes her name is Whitehead her Mother is Edith Whitehead. Yes her father was paying Mrs Hillman a child minder. Mrs Hillman died but she had two daughters one was Joan Hillman and the other Ivy Hillman. Ivy married Jack Pritchard.
Jack and Ivy to ward of my mother. Joan that is Ivy's sister and Ivy's dad live with Jack, Ivy and my mother in Ladbrook Grove and Syon Lane Isleworth.
Mr Hillman died 1954/55. Joan died in 1988 Jack died 1995and Ivy died in 2000


Ivy and Jack would not revel the name of her father. Joan memtioned that Edith was very young with long black hair. when she went to ask Edith about Rose. Edith said she was too busy as she was getting married and do not talk to lound as she didi not want anyone to know.

My

Dear Janey
I greatly appreciate your kind response, I have my mothers birth cert on my desk.
Mother was registered as Whitehead,
The father name is not mentioned
The mothers name E.Whitehead

According to this cerificate her address 182A The grove W.6


I did find information from the Hammersmith archives that
Mr Isaac Supper was also living there? it is a long shot could he be related

The mum's birth was registered as Whitehead (a search at Ancestry finds it) so I would doubt that a father's name is on it. Not likely that Lesley's mum named him on her marriage certificate either, unfortunately.

The name Supper is so uncommon that it should be possible to identify this man -- I'm sure Lesley must have his given name from the ER -- ?

And the odds of one of those two marriages being the right Edith seem pretty high. Even if you have to buy both of them, Lesley, there's a good chance you can tell from the age of the bride whether one of them is your Edith, I'd think.