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What if Harry's mother wasn't as particular about the facts as Harry was, when she reported info for censuses?


1881

Name: Harry Clark
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1864
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Ann Clark
Where born: Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Occupation: Errand Boy (Out Of Employment)

Civil Parish: Marylebone
County/Island: London
Street address: No 8 Short Street

Ann Clark 54
Harry Clark 17
Charles Jno. Clark 15
Minnie Clark 12


but possible births for that Harry:

Births Mar 1863 = 18 in 1881 census
CLARK Harry Marylebone 1a 474
Births Jun 1864 - could have been born before census date, so 17 in 1881
CLARK Henry Marylebone 1a 437


But hmm, take a look at the image for that household. It's a huge mess. Mary is "sister", I finally figured out. What is the HOH's surname (previous page, cont'd on page Clarks are on)? It seems to end in -kins.

Oh, and the fun part is that Ancestry has not transcribed the first four names on the page, so I can't use "view others on same page" to find the household -- !!! Ah, they're included on the previous page. Ancestry has it as Gibbins. Probably correct. The household in 1871:

Abraham Clark 46
Ann Clark 41
Margaret Clark 17
Alice Clark 13
Elizabeth Clark 11
Annie Clark 9
Harry Clark 7
Charles Clak 5
Minnie Clak 2

So there's him ruled out too.

"The specific date of Harry's marriage, according to the certtificate is January 23rd, 1886. Harry was 23."

Good -- so that rules out births in Q4 1861! If he reported his age accurately in all the censuses and it was correct on his death certificate, he was born between 23 Jan 1862 and 14 Sept 1862 -- but again, if born in Q1, he would have been a year older in censuses, so we still have Q2, Q3 and Q4 as our options.


I actually have been expecting he might be found in an institution, and that one in 1871 looks very interesting:

Address: Mill Hill School, Ingrave, Essex
Harry A CLARK, age 8 Born London
Arthur E (Maybe G) CLARK, age 9 Born London

If you look at George Bishop on the next page of the census images, I'd say it's Arthur G.


This is the only similar-looking birth, but it would have made him 10:

Births Dec 1860
CLARK Arthur George Bethnal Gn 1c 266

... That one is Arthur G Clark, born c1861 in Bethnal Green, with mother Mary in Shoreditch in 1881 -- with brother Harry A Clark.


Name: Harry A. Clark
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Mary Clark
Where born: Bethnal Gn, Middlesex, England
Occupation: Writer Savings Bank

Civil Parish: Shoreditch

Mary Clark 52 - Licensed Victualler
Frederick E. Clark 23 - ditto
Arthur G. Clark 20 - ditto
Harry A. Clark 18
Emma Evans 46
Charles Armitage 23


Likely he would have remembered his mother's name, at that age. ;)



"Also, could Lily in the 1911 Census be Lilian, Harry's daughter?"

Undoubtedly is. The names were interchangeable. (My grandmother was born Lily in 1896, but my grandfather thought it common, so when they married she became Lilian.)

Florence Cooke married John Bogg not Robert Morgan

Name: Florence Bogg
Age: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1866
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: John Bogg
Gender: Female
Where born: Redhill, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Plumstead
Ecclesiastical parish: St Margarets
Town: West India Dock London
County/Island: London
Country: England


Registration district: Woolwich
Sub-registration district: Plumstead, West
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Bogg 40
Florence Bogg 25
Florence Bogg 2

.

JaneyCanuck -
The specific date of Harry's marriage, according to the certtificate is January 23rd, 1886. Harry was 23.

Joan x

Thank you for everything that you have done for me.

I did find an entry in the 1871 Census. It was in Essex though.
Address: Mill Hill School, Ingrave, Essex
Harry A CLARK, age 8 Born London
Arthur E (Maybe G) CLARK, age 9 Born London

Also, could Lily in the 1911 Census be Lilian, Harry's daughter? I couldn't find a marriage for her though.

Florence Eliza Cooke who witnessed Harry and Alice's marriage, possibly married Jun 1887 the year after Harry's marriage.
This is the record according to Free BMD

Marriages Jun 1887
Bendall Matilda Lewisham 1d 1485
Bogg John Granville Lewisham 1d 1485
COOKE Florence Eliza Lewisham 1d 1485
MORGAN Robert Lewisham 1d 1485

The last entry for Robert Morgan...maybe a coincidence that MORGAN is mentioned both here and also in the 1911 Census??????

It occurred that possibly this person in 1881

CLARKE, John Head Married M 46 1835 Arsenal Laborer Clapham Surrey
2, Richmond Pl, Plumstead

had been previously married, and the younger Henry in that household was really a child of the second wife -- especially given the very long gap between son John c1867/1869 and son Henry c1874, which could have been time between marriages. No stone unturned!

But the household is the same in 1871, in Plumstead (with the gap filled by children who apparently didn't survive):

John Clarke 39
Jane Clarke 36
Jane Clarke 12
Clare Clarke 9
Julia Clarke 7
John Clarke 4
Manuel Clarke 2
Ellen Clarke 3 Months

(with Henry not yet born)

Births registered in Middlesex, Q2-Q4 1862, with possible deaths. Infant mortality was very high, but before 1866, age at death is not shown in index.


Henry Clark/e - 13 in total
Harry Clark - 1 in Islington, Q4 1862


Henry Job Jenkins, Q2 Clerkenwell
- in 1871 with widowed mother Eliza Jenkins and siblings


Births Jun 1862
CLARK Henry Kensington 1a 144
- could be the death Q4 1862 Kensington
CLARK Henry James Barnet 3a 109
- likely the death Q4 1862 Barnet
CLARK Henry John Marylebone 1a 446
CLARK Henry John Marylebone 1a 394
- there are Henry John deaths before 1866 in Middlesex
CLARKE Henry George Westminster 1a 315
- likely the death Q4 1866 Westminster aged 4
CLARKE Henry James Kensington 1a 19
CLARKE Henry Richard Pancras 1b 124

Births Sep 1862
CLARK Henry James Poplar 1c 561
CLARKE Henry John Uxbridge 3a 33
- could be the death Uxbridge Q4 1862

Births Dec 1862
CLARK Harry Islington 1b ___
CLARK Henry Chelsea 1a ___
CLARK Henry Norman Islington 1b ___
CLARKE Henry St Geo Han Sq 1a 254
- there is a death Q2 1863 St Geo Han Sq
CLARKE Henry John St Luke 1b 635

(the blanks refer to unintelligible page numbers, which could likely be deciphered if needed)

Also could be the death of one of them:

Deaths Sep 1870
Clarke Henry 9 St. Giles 1b 373



Just a "for ref" kind of thing -- if all the info given by Henry on his various certificates and in censuses was accurate, these appear to be the possible births.

If he was really born outside Middlesex, or his birth was not registered as Clark -- or simply was not registered, not an impossibility at that time -- he won't be in that list.

The point of those "random" Clarks is that they were on the same tiny street as Harry 1863. 1& 2 Richardson Place
The names did not match but might be a starting point to look for Harry's siblings since we have nothing else to go on..

I

He was consistent with his age:

marriage Mar quarter 1886 - aged 23
death 14 Sep 1933 - aged 71

So his birthday was sometime between
late 1861 (a marriage reg in Q1 1886 could have been in Dec 1885 -- if you know the specific date of the marriage that could narrow it further)
and
14 Sep 1862 (having turned 71 by the date of his death)

So his birth could have been registered from
Q4 1861 (a December birth)
to
Q4 1862 (a September birth), unfortunately.

And that's if he always knew his true birthdate.

(Again, people didn't always -- my grandfather, old Ernest's son, believed he was born on 15 Dec 1900 until he retired and had to get his birth cert to prove his pension entitlement, and discovered he was born on 17 Dec 1901.)

A birth in Q4 1861 or Q1 1862 would make him 9, 19, etc., in censuses.
A birth in Q2 or Q3 1862 would make him 8, 18, etc., in censuses.
Again, if he was / his parents were always scrupulously accurate in reporting his age.

He reported age 48 in 1911, age 38 in 1901 and age 28 in 1891.

So that puts us in the latter category: a birth in Q2 or Q3 (but possibly registered in Q4) 1862 (not 1863).

Unfortunately, there are no H*ry Clark* (or Jenkins) births in Stepney reg dist in those quarters.

But there again, people often reported the place where they grew up as their place of birth, in many cases because they assumed it was where they were born.

As far as "definite info" --

"He is definately listed as Harry Clark Age 23 Bachelor, Labourer, of Plumstead on his marriage certificate. His father is listed as John Clark Labourer."

The definite info there is that he *stated* that his name was Harry Clark, and he *stated* that his father was John Clark, labourer.

That doesn't mean that the info is true.

As all of us regulars know, my gr-grfather stated when he married that his name was Ernest Monck, cook, and his father was Francis Monck, cook, and that was a complete load of bunk. His name was Ernest Hill, and his father was Francis Hill, deceased bankrupt stock dealer.

People gave false info when they married for all sorts of reasons. They might have believed it was true (a person might have thought their stepfather was their father, e.g.). They might have been hiding from something and intentionally concealing their identity (my gr-grf was a military deserter - but it's also possible that his real father was named Monck, I still dunno). They might not have wanted to admit that their parents weren't married, so they invented a father with their mother's surname.

That's not to say that the info given by anyone in particular is false, for whatever reason. It's just to say that the fact of what someone stated on a certificate should not be confused with actual fact. The two are not necessarily the same.


And now the enormous unedited lists that LadyKira has posted ... not quite as bad as that massive thing of PollyPoppets (which others have remarked cause them to lose the will to live) ..

I had considered the cheesemonger apprentice and thought him unlikely, so didn't bother copying or remarking on that. I assume Joan is aware of most possibilities.

I considered arsenal/weaponry workers, and in particular the possibility that someone in that occupation might previously have been in the miiltary.

But just posting lists of John Clark*-s in the vicinity in the censuses ... not a whole lot of point, unless we've followed them and found some reason to focus on them.

The 1891 census last listed has head of household John, yes, but the Henry is Henry G, and 10+ years younger than the Henry we are looking for ...

This one in 1881:

CLARK, Henry Lodger Single M 20 1861 Dock Laborer Stepney Middlesex

is one worth considering, if we could find more about him. Limehouse is the name of the later reg dist; in the 1860s, Limehouse the area, which people often named as their place of birth, was indeed in Stepney reg dist, so I had been searching that way too, of course. I tended to think that if, years later, Henry was giving Limehouse as his place of birth, he might have done that consistently (although he didn't in 1901).


Still no idea what we might think of that marriage I posted - the one and only that bears any resemblance to what we're looking for.

Some interesting findings to consiret

maybe?
1881 Address: 67, Walmer Rd, Plumstead
SMITH, Richard I Head Married M 23 1858 Grocer & Cheesemonger
London Middlesex
SMITH, Clara A Wife Married F 20 1861 Plumstead Kent
CLARKE, Henry Apprentice Single M 17 1864 Grocer & Cheesemonger Apprentice
London Middlesex

or
1881 Address: 35, (Lodging House), Flower & Dean St, Spitalfields
REDDIN, Richard Head Married M 28 1853 Hawker Dover Kent
REDDIN, Susannah Wife Married F 25 1856 Hawker Woolwich Kent
MITCHELL, Peter Lodger Single M 18 1863 Cabinet Maker Islington Middlesex
BURGESS, Arthur Lodger Single M 29 1852 French Polisher Reading Berkshire
ANDERSON, William Lodger Single M 29 1852 Harness Maker WorthingSussex
LANE, Edward Lodger Single M 40 1841 Hawker Newcastle on Tyne Northumberland
CLARK, Henry Lodger Single M 20 1861 Dock Laborer Stepney Middlesex
(Limehouse was created from Stepney)

wonder if this one is connected

1881 census - household transcription
Person: CLARK, Charles James
Address: 1, Richmond Pl, Plumstead
CLARK, William Head Married M 49 1832 Impression Taker Royal Arsenal
Chittenham Gloucestershire
CLARK, Caroline Wife Married F 43 1838 Dressmaker
Chittenham Gloucestershire
CLARK, Charles James Son Single M 17 1864 Errand Boy
Plumstead Kent
CLARK, Margaret S Daughter Single F 9 1872 Scholar
Plumstead Kent
CLARK, Caroline Daughter Single F 7 1874 Scholar
Plumstead Kent
CLARK, Albert E Son Single M 5 1876 Scholar
Plumstead Kent
CLARK, Ada Lousia Daughter Single F 3 1878 Scholar
Plumstead Kent

1881 census - address transcription
Address: 2, Richmond Pl, Plumstead
21 CLARKE, John Head Married M 46 1835 Arsenal Laborer
Clapham Surrey
21 CLARKE, Jane Wife Married F 44 1837 Dressmaker
Lowestoft Suffolk
21 CLARKE, Jane Daughter Single F 21 1860 Dressmaker
Woolwich Kent
21 CLARKE, Clara Daughter Single F 18 1863 Domestic Servant
Woolwich Kent
21 CLARKE, Julia Daughter Single F 17 1864 Domestic Servant
Woolwich Kent
21 CLARKE, John Son Single M 14 1867 Scholar
Plumstead Kent
21 CLARKE, Henry Son Single M 7 1874 Scholar
Plumstead Kent
21 CLARKE, Benjamin Son Single M 3 1878
Plumstead Kent


1891 census - address transcription
Address: 1, Richmond Place, Plumstead, N
198 CLARK, William Head Married M 59 1832 Impression Taker Arsenal
Cheltenham Gloucestershire
198 CLARK, Caroline Wife Married F 52 1839
Cheltenham Gloucestershire
198 CLARK, Caroline Daughter Single F 17 1874
Plumstead Kent
198 CLARK, Albert E Son Single M 15 1876
PlumsteadKent
198 CLARK, Ada L Daughter F 13 1878 Scholar Plumstead

1891 census - address transcription
Address: 2, Richmond Place, Plumstead, N
199 CLARKE, John Head Married M 58 1833 Pensioner From R A
Clapham Surrey
199 CLARKE, Jane Wife Married F 56 1835
Lowestoft Suffolk
199 CLARKE, John W Son Single M 22 1869 Machinist R A
Plumstead Kent
199 CLARKE, Henry G Son Single M 17 1874 Messenger R A
Plumstead Kent
199 CLARKE, Benjamin Son M 13 1878 Scholar
Plumstead Kent

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Alice Louisa Leakey Name: Alice Louisa Leakey
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1866
Baptism Date: 18 Nov 1866
Father's name: James Leakey
Mother's name: Anne Leakey
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Greenwich
born Oct 21
Old general HospitAL
private military trainer?

1881 census - household transcription
Person: LEAKEY, Louisa
Address: 10, St Marys St, Woolwich
LEAKEY, James Head Married M 47 1834 Labourer
Churchill
Somerset
LEAKEY, Mary A Wife Married F 32 1849
Woolwich
Kent
LEAKEY, Henry Son Single M 16 1865 Labourer
Montreal
America
LEAKEY, Louisa Daughter Single F 14 1867
Woolwich
Kent
LEAKEY, Arthur Son Single M 12 1869 Scholar
Woolwich
Kent
LEAKEY, Edward Son Single M 7 1874 Scholar
Woolwich
Kent
LEAKEY, Frederick Son Single M 5 1876 Scholar
Woolwich
Kent

Marriages Mar 1886
CLARK Harry Woolwich 1d 1092
LEAKEY Alice Louisa Woolwich 1d 1092

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Harry Clark Name: Harry Clark
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Spouse Name: Alice Louisa Leakey
Spouse Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 23 Jan 1886
Parish: St Nicholas, Plumstead
County: Kent
Borough: Greenwich
Father Name: John Clark
Spouse Father Name: James Leakey
witnesses were James Leakey
Florence Eliza (Cooke?)

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Henry William Arthur Clark
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1887
Baptism Date: 6 Feb 1887
Father's name: Harry Clark
Mother's name: Alice Louisa Clark
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich Holy Trinity
Borough: Greenwich
Harry is listed as a labourer in the Royal Arsenal
24 Richmond Place Plumstead

A SUMMARY OF DEFINITE INFO SO FAR IN 2 PARTS


London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Lilian Louisa Clark
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1889
Baptism Date: 1 Feb 1889
Father's name: Harry Clark
Mother's name: Alice Louisa Clark
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Greenwich
born nov 6th 1888
55 Maxey Road
father is a labourer


1891 census - household transcription
Person: CLARK, Harry
Address: 51, Station Road, Plumstead
CLARK, Harry Head Married M 28 1863 Skilled General Labourer London
CLARK, Louisa Wife Married F 24 1867 Woolwich Kent
CLARK, Henry Son M 4 1887 Plumstead Kent
CLARK, Lillian Daughter F 2 1889 Plumstead Kent

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
James Richard Clark
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1896
Baptism Date: 30 Sep 1896
Father's name: Harry Clark
Mother's name: Louisa Clark
Parish or Poor Law Union: Plumstead St John the Baptist
Borough: Greenwich
51 Station Road.
His father Harry was listed as a machinist.

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Arthur John Clark
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1897
Baptism Date: 17 Aug 1897
Father's name: Harry Clark
Mother's name: Louisa Clark
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Greenwich
Addres ....a Place
father is machinist

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Alice Maud Clark
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1898
Baptism Date: 11 Dec 1898
Father's name: Harry Clark
Mother's name: Alice Louisa Clark
Parish or Poor Law Union: Plumstead St Margaret
Borough: Greenwich
1 Olven Road
father is machinist
born 22 nov 1898

1901 Address: 1, Houses Building, Olven Road, Plumstead
CLARK, Harry Head Married M 38 1863 Machinist (Rl Arsenal) London
CLARK, Alice L Wife Married F 34 1867 Woolwich London
CLARK, Henry W A Son Single M 14 1887 Magazine Boy (Rl Arsenal) Plumstead London
CLARK, Lilian L Daughter F 12 1889 Plumstead London
CLARK, Richard J Son M 9 1892 Plumstead London
CLARK, Arthur J Son M 7 1894 Plumstead London
CLARK, Alice M Daughter F 2 1899 Plumstead London
SCOTT, James E Visitor Single M 39 1862 Engineer (Mechanical)
Newcastle on Tyne Northumberland

Births Mar 1908 (>99%)
Clark Rose Ena Woolwich 1d 1264



1911 Address: 1 Olven Road Plumstead
CLARK, Harry Head Married M 48 1863 Machinist Sewer Shell London Limehouse
CLARK, Alice Wife Married 25 years F 44 1867 Woolwich Kent
CLARK, Henry Son Single M 24 1887 Cable Hand Plumstead Kent
CLARK, James Son Single M 19 1892 Apprentice Plumstead Kent
CLARK, Arthur Son Single M 17 1894 Apprentice Plumstead Kent
CLARK, Alice Daughter Single F 12 1899 School Plumstead Kent
CLARK, Ena Daughter Single F 4 1907 School Plumstead Kent
SCOTT, James Boarder Single M 51 1860 Fitter Bedlington North
MORGAN, David Visitor Married M 32 1879 Chemist's Manager Highbury London
MORGAN, Lily Visitor Married F 22 1889 Plumstead Kent
Children Still Living 6
Children Who Have Died 1

Lillian
Harry W A
James richard
Arthur j
Alice maud
Rose Ena
plus 1

Joan

Sorry I fell asleep last night after a long day.

I did find Harry's marriage on the London baptims though and all the info was as you said.

You have not offended anyone.
Some searches are straight forward and easy.
Some take a little more thinking through.
Sometimes it is the tiniest detail on a record that can give the breakthrough.
What Janey is trying to do is to help you to think outside of the box for the next stage.
Spelling was not a strong point for our ancestors and nor was awareness of date.
If you already have something such as certificates it is helpful to post it to help us search for you.

I'm sooooo sorry if I offended anyone......I didn't mean for YOU to do better than you are already doing....I meant better than I have done so far! Truly, it was not my intention to scoff at what you have done. I appreciate sincerely how much work you are all putting in for me. Here is what I have so far in addition to what has been mentioned already:

He is definately listed as Harry Clark Age 23 Bachelor, Labourer, of Plumstead on his marriage certificate. His father is listed as John Clark Labourer.
On Son Henry William Arthur's baptism certificate, Harry is listed as a labourer in the Royal Arsenal and the family lived at 24 Richmond Place Plumstead
When son James was baptised the family lived at 51 Station Road. His father Harry was listed as a machinist.
On Harry's Death Certificate his father is listed as John Clar no occupation and his mother is listed as Annie Jenkins'
I hope this helps..........x

Joan, the point isn't what you have.

The point is that we don't have it.

For instance, you said Alice Louise Leakey. It was Alice Louisa.

We need to see the actual records of things to make sure they're accurate, and to see exactly what they say, e.g. that Henry/Harry married as Harry.

You presumably had Henry and Louisa in censuses after they married, but we needed to see what those censuses said.

Etc.


By the way, you presumably didn't have the John Clark / Antonette Jenkins marriage, and you didn't have anything to say about that suggestion.

"Can anyone do better?"

Well, I've spent the last hour or so trying.

When someone doesn't appear in records the way you expect them to, you have to consider other options. That's what I've been doing -- e.g. he was born before the marriage of John and Annie, under her surname ... her surname was a first married surname ... he was born to unmarried parents and "John Clark" is a fiction ... in that case, his mother might have married before the 1871 census and he could be recorded under his stepfather's surname, which is an unknown ... etc. etc. etc.

You could be in for some fun if Antonette Jenkins is your woman.


1851

Name: Antionette Jankins (it says Jenkins)
Age: 26
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Relation: Head
Where born: London, England
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Actress

Civil Parish: Shoreditch
County/Island: Middlesex
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Hoxton New Town

Antionette Jankins 26
Emily Smith 22 - daughter, dressmaker, born Middlesex
Sophia Smith 25 - daughter, milliner, born Middlesex

The main household at the address is a lodging house keeper and his family.


Rather obviously, the Smith sisters are not her daughters. And the three of them are on different household schedules. And this could be one of fthose instances where dressmaker/milliner is a euphemism.


Marriages Dec 1846
Collins William Whitaker Lambeth 4 367
Drake Samuel Lambeth 4 367
?? Hamilton Antoinette Lambeth 4 367
Honner Eliza Lambeth 4 367
?? Jenkins Edward William Lambeth 4 367
Parker Hannah Lambeth 4 367

Thank you all so much for the information, most of which I have already. I have tried to find Harry/Henry in each of the censuses since his birth but to no avail. Can anyone do better?

For accuracy

Marriages Mar 1886
CLARK Harry Woolwich 1d 1092
LEAKEY Alice Louisa Woolwich 1d 1092

Could Annie have been short for ...

Marriages Dec 1865
? Clark John Pancras 1b 343
? Jenkins Antonette Pancras 1b 343
MAHONEY Denis Pancras 1b 343
MANGAN Mary Pancras 1b 343
SHIEL Sarah Pancras 1b 343