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Thanks you you everyone who has posted. My Gran did indeed marry my Grandad in 1935 and as a family we made the assumption that divorce being outside the reach of working class families that they had co habited since 1899 and that Charles had died allowing re marrieage in the 1930s, however I wanted to close any loose ends especially as my Uncle Fred was never given any info on his father and although he is long gone I wanted to remedy this in some way. Again many thanks

Avril

Marriages Sep 1917 (>99%)
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James Charles W Wright Woolwich 1d 2300
Wright Maud T James Woolwich 1d 2300

Hmmmm?

Hmmmm, well spotted RG

Also the other Maud H Thomas married twice, 1897...Bunnett and then 1912...Bell, so I dont think either of them I posted earlier are correct

Dohhh

Thanks rootgatherer - that's that one out then :)

Struggling to follow Maud Helen Thomas.

I had looked at that Maud but thought that this was probably her in 1901 when Charles's Maude was listed with him?

1901 Census

Name: Maud Denney
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Relation: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: London, England

Civil parish: Lee
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Lee
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 386
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Denney 31
Maud Denney 28
Ada Denney 21

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 546; Folio: 33; Page: 58.


Same family in 1881

Name: Maud H. Denny
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Wiliam J.
Mother's Name: Ellen
Gender: Female
Where born: Battersea, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Southwark St George Martyr
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 8 Marcia Rd
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: Kent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 11a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Wiliam J. Denny 41
Ellen Denny 44
Ernest Denny 14
Charles Denny 11
Maud H. Denny 8
Walter Denny 5
Ada Denny 1
Jane Clark 61

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 523; Folio: 54; Page: 5; GSU roll: 1341117


Looks like she is still with her brother and sister in 1911

HOUSEHOLD DENNEY MAUDE F 1873 38 Lewisham London
HOUSEHOLD DENNEY ADA F 1880 31 Lewisham London
HOUSEHOLD DENNEY CHARLES M 1872 39 Lewisham London

That first one looks interesting GInny. I couldn't find a marriage for her and this is a possible death -

Name: Maude H Denney
Death Registration Month/Year: 1946
Age at death (estimated): 73
Registration district: Lewisham
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 656

Probably smaller ones to drink out of on Friday nights. (lol)

Oh good grief...sorry, I think I might need glasses!

It is already on the thread (09:20) but here it is again:

1911??
JAMES, Charles William Head Married M 39 1872 Traveller Carpets London VIEW
JAMES, Maude Wife Married
10 years F 38 1873 Dressmaker London VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
2473 Reference:
RG14PN2473 RG78PN83 RD27 SD2 ED14 SN139

Registration District:
Camberwell Sub District:
Camberwell South Enumeration District:
14 Parish:
Camberwell

Address:
85 E Dulwich Grove S E County:
London

Can you post it then please!

Gin,

Yes via FMP.

Jonesey, do you access to the 1911 for Maud and Charles please?

I wonder if this is 'Maud'

Births Dec 1872 (>99%)
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DENNEY Maud Hannah Wandsworth 1d 559

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Births Mar 1873 (>99%)
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Thomas Maud Helen Wandsworth 1d 632

???

Name: Charles James
Death Registration Month/Year: 1934
Age at death (estimated): 71
Registration district: Camberwell
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 594

Avril,

From what has been found it would appear likely that Charles William James and Phoebe did indeed split but that initially at least neither left the area. At that time divorce was really only an option for rich people due to the process and high costs involved. Accordingly many people are believed to have simply parted and set up homes with someone else. Women usually taking the surname of their new "Husband". Sometimes a bigamous marriage would take place with the person simply stating that they were either widowed or that they were a spinster or a bachelor. Unless their previous marriage partner subsequently objected these subterfuges went undetected in most cases.

The fact that at first glance no second marriage for Charles can be found would seem to indicate that he may have moved into a second partnership without remarrying. Christine has found a "Belated" 2nd marriage for Phoebe.

As far as the remark your grandmother may have made about Charles having left to go to live in Birmingham goes, this may or may not have been true. I think however it more likely that it was probably just another part of the subterfuge to cover the past.

There are many Charles W James deaths recorded which might have been his based upon the date of death and the reported age of the deceased at death. Some of these are in areas not far from where he appears to have been living in 1911 but of course he may have moved anywhere so without obtaining copies of all of the death certificates you are unlikely to discover which, if any, relate to your Charles.

Good luck with your future research.

Thanks Jonesey - and snap :)

I wonder if one of these deaths could have been the reason for the late marriage?

Deaths Dec 1932
James Charles W 59 Lincoln 7a 563
James Charles W 57 Lancaster 8e 813

Well found Christine.

That might indicate that Charles had died by then, leaving Phoebe free to remarry.

And a somewhat belated marriage -

Marriages Dec 1935
James Phoebe E King Lambeth 1d 617
King Auberon B James Lambeth 1d 617

Here's Auberon's birth if it's any help -

Births Jun 1873
KING Auberon Brougham Kensington 1a 22