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the above named who is my great great grandmother was born approx 1877, married 1904 to William Usher Duke.She is shown on marriage cert as Winifred Scott aged 27, father George Scott (deceased) engineer. she died 1965 Sunderland, we have however been unable to find her birth details so have now hit a brick wall, we believe she always lived in the s/land area. but there may be an irish connection, If asked she always said her full name was Winifred Mary Angelina Barrett Scott Mills married to William Usher Duke. they had one child Frances Alice Mills born 1909 we have been searching for months now but have been unsuccessful, I would be extremely grateful for any help or information - Lyn

Thank you all for your help which has taught me a lot, think we may have found Winifred, but am waiting for the postman to be really sure. Will add a note when I know more

Thanks again Lyn xx

Unfortunately we have still not been able to trace Winifred, both the birth certs we requested were not the right ones, so we are still looking. Hey ho

1911 census - household transcription
Person: DUKE, Winifred
Address: 112 Victor Street Monkwearmouth Sunderland

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DUKE, William Usker Head Married M 35 1876 Coal Miner Hewer Durham Sunderland VIEW
DUKE, Winifred Wife Married
6 years F 34 1877 Durham Sunderland VIEW
DUKE, Francis Alice Daughter F 1 1910 Durham Sunderland VIEW
SCOTT, John Brother In Law Single M 29 1882 General Labourer Durham Sunderland VIEW

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Hmmm the marriage

Marriages Jun 1904
Duke William Usher Sunderland 10a 1134
Scott Winifred Sunderland 10a 1134

She was simply Winifred Scott, the Mills name could be a clue tho?

Do you know anything about her parents?



Tracey x

Brother john was also Scott

We have already found the above information, we cannot however find anything regarding her birth cert, so are therefore unable to move backwards from her, we know from mar cert, her father was named George, and he was deceased at time of mar in 1904, he was an engineer, but we dont know what kind or any dob for him, we believe the 'mills' part of the name came from her godmother, Hannah barbara mills, but are not certain, She may have been employed as a laundress in South shields, but we are unable to confirm. We have no information regarding her mother, but it could be Isabella Barrett, born newcastle but cannot confirm this

We have not been able to find any entries on census's which show her other names, but the two surving members of the family who knew her have both confirmed that she gave her name as Winifred Mary (may be her saint name as they were catholic) angelina (irish name) barrett (mothers maiden name possibly, Scott Mills

I know it seems like we are going over info you already have.... but the clue is you already have it, and we do not.... therefore we need to establish the facts as they are so we can move backwards.

Am i right in saying you have not got Winifred on any other census other than the 1911 one?


Tracey x

Edited, incorrect info

Tracey x

.....and we solve the problem...either Isabella was married before and the children were the product of that marriage, or the children were illegitimate and born before she married George!

Or the childs father is a Barrett and they have his name and Isabella has retained her maiden name as they are still unmarried?

1881 RG number: RG11 Piece: 5002 Folio: 35 Page: 63
Reg. District: Sunderland Sub District: West Sunderland
Address: 38, George St, Sunderland County: Durham
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WELLS, Elizabeth Head Widow F 38 1843 Norfolk
SCOTT, Isabella Wife Married F 26 1855 NewcastleNorthumberland
BARRETT, John Son Single M 2 1879 NewcastleNorthumberland
BARRETT, Winifred Daughter Single F 1 1880 NewcastleNorthumberland

As usual the transcribers have got it wrong, Elizabeth Wells is actually renting another room in the house and has nothing to do with Isabella and her family!

Tracey x

Hmmm, this could indicate Isabella was a Scott ??

Births Mar 1855 Scott Isabella Newcastle T 10b 4


Tracey x

We have also found these entries, but have been unable to clarify, at least we can discount Elizabeth Wells. Her mar cert is really causing problems, cos her father is shown as being George Scott - deceased, which seems to close the door in thinking he may be Barrett, the only other clues from the cert is that the witnesses were Robert and Isabella Duncan? perhaps Isabella remarried, but we are still unable to trace a birth cert for Winifred she is shown as Winifred Scott on her marriage cert and her daughters birth cert also shows winifred Duke, nee Scott?

Also I notw the dob is given as 1880, but the 1911 censu shows her dob as 1877 with .iher brother ? John born 1882, tho I know there are many errors in the entries

Lyn x

Witnesses on her mar cert were Robert and Isabella Duncan, it is possible that Isabella remarried a Duncan, but the name Isabella seems to be very common

Lyn xx

Are these marriage dates/partners the George Scott we are looking for? ~Winifred Scott his daughter was born c1877. thanks for trying

Lyn xx

Lyn,

You are focusing too much on dates! ALL census info is just that info....it's not absolute fact! I have numerous people whom have lost or gained many many years on census's....info is only as good as the person holding it believes it to be!

Winifred may not have been aware she was born a Barratt..... or indeed her exact date of birth! Indeed you'd think her mother would know more acurately than Winifred would ever know....

The 1881 census has them clearly marked as Scott & Barratt, this would have been info Isabella provided herself. She would most def know if her child was 1 year old or not!.... and the name of that child! The fact she has labelled herself as married means nothing on a census, alot of single women with children did that to disguise things!

It's highly possible Winifred grew up thinking her father's name was George, when infact he was invented and her mother's maiden name was Scott, and she was base born (illegitimate)

Please don't take offence to all this....it happened ALOT, but currently the only facts you have are on certs where the data has come from Winifred herself.... and it's possible she lied, it's also maybe the reason she's given herself all those names, to hide it?

Can i just add, i have a rellie whom was born 7 years after her listed father died...he's her father on all paperwork and she made refernce to him all the time, including her marriage cert.... only when i found her birth did i realise she was born all that time after her 'father' died !!! She clearly wasn't good at math !

Tracey x

Probably a complete red herring, but just butting in! Wondered if maybe she was born with a different surname entirely? I know it isn't likely but still:

Births Sep 1876 (>99%)
Kegan Winifred Mary A S. Shields 10a 792

EDIT should have kept out of this I think!

Nope,

Jan, it's a very valid point.... i have been looking along those lines also...


T x

????
what about this

Name: Winefrida Scott
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 21 May 1865
Baptism/Christening Place: St Bede, Jarrow, Durham, England
Birth Date: 21 Apr 1865
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Georgii Scott
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Isabella Barrett Scott
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C01028-7
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 2046479
Reference Number:
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Lyn,

What was the address on the 1902 marriage cert for Winifred?


Tracey x

SAFC

It's about 15 years too early.

We know Winifred was born around 1887 - 1880.


Tracey x

Lyn
Just another thing to consider that I was reminded of last night when I looked at one of rellies. This will help show the problems.

Alice is first shown with her parents with 5 children listed as married but she and her children are all with her maiden name of Wilde..
She then marries Mr Scott from next door.
Mr Scott was previously married and had 2 children with his first wife Mary.
When Joseph dies she marries Mr Rimmer and has a furthur 3 children.
Henry was also previously married to another Alice and already had 6 children. He was also previously married to Ann and had 4 children with her.
Ann was also previously married and also had a child.
The children on censuses and other records are never sure which parent or step parent to use. Sometimes they use a mixture of the surnames.
Sometimes life was very complicated but people did marry again quickly if they needed a breadwinner or mother for their children.
What I am trying to say is that sometimes the records may not give all the information. The example above involves 7 marriages and 21 children.