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Yes having problems finding birth details for both my grandmothers if you are interested. TonyR

Do you want to give us their names and birth dates and we will go from there,

Yes, I also agree that this is probably the correct family.

The baptism details for Frederick George Houchin - illegitimate son of Phoebe and the 1891 census for Phoebe Houchin both give the address as 60 Hewlett Road, which matches the address of the informant on Henry's birth certificate.

I'm not 100% sure but I think the head of the house was legally able to register a birth that occurred in their house - so if Elizabeth Houchin (???Phoebe's mother) was head of the house then she could have registered Henry's birth.

Another bit of info.
Last night I attempted to find my photocopy of Henry's birth certificate (my sister and B-I-L have the original). I couldn't find it but I did find some notes that I made when my brother-in-law first asked me to do this research (almost two years ago).

Evidently Henry was very reticent about his past and his children had learned not to ask but, my brother-in-law did recall his father mentioning that he had an 'Aunt Bessie' and an 'Aunt Rachel'.

This fits doesn't it? Aunt Bessie is Phoebe's older sister Elizabeth and Aunt Rachel is her younger sister Rachel.

I had forgotten all about this until I started looking for the photocopy last night. Am I right in thinking that this personal memory from Henry himself helps to pin it down even more?
If I had remembered this I might not have been so attracted to the family of Thomas Houchin and the red herring of a Henry Houchin staying with the Goslings. TonyR

Yes, I do think this memory makes the Phoebe in Bow a little more likely, although you do have to be careful with memories of Aunties and Uncles as sometimes back then children were usually expected to call the next door neighbour, good friend of the family, etc Aunty or Uncle as a mark of respect.

However, in this case with two Aunties that match the census information it does seem more likely that this is the right family.



Do you want to post the details for your grandmothers?? I have a little time spare this morning so could take a look for you if you want.

CherryBlossom OK Many Thanks Here is the first one .

My maternal grandmother. She is the only grandparent I knew apart from a rare contact with my paternal grandfather.
Before marriage her name was Elizabeth Ada Foord.

On 14 April 1895 she married Alfred James Hume at Holy Trinity Church in the parish of Tottenham. Between 1895 and 1913 they had 8 children. My mother Dorothy Violet Hume was the fifth child and the second daughter.

I have the marriage cert for Elizabeth and Alfred. It shows her father as George Edward Foord. It shows her age as 20. Alfred’s age is also shown as 20. This puts their year of birth as about 1875.

In the BMD indexes I have found an Elizabeth Ann Foord (June 1876 Poplar 1c 598) and an Elizabeth Ada Ford (June 1875 Shoreditch 1c 184).

Of these two I favour the latter because the year ties up with the marriage cert and if there is a spelling mistake I think that Foord misspelt as Ford is more likely than Ada misspelt as Ann.

The BMD indexes show Elizabeth A Hume died in 1949 aged 74 (Edmonton Jan-Feb-Mar 5e 295) There are some date contradictions here but I think this is her.
My grandmother certainly died in 1949.

My strategy on this one is to get the Shoreditch birth certificate and see whether the father is George Edward. Do you agree or is there a better way?
TonyR

Right - here is a baptism record for Elizabeth Ada Foord

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Elizabeth Ada Foord
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1876
Baptism Date: 23 Apr 1876
Father's name: George Foord
Mother's name: Mary Ann Foord
Parish or Poor Law Union: Haggerston St Mary
Borough: Hackney

Address at baptism - 2 Cambridge Court
Fathers occupation - bookmaking

Date of birth given on record as 2nd June 1875


Shoreditch registration district at that time covered the following sub districts

SHOREDITCH REGISTRATION DISTRICT
Registration County : London.
Created : 1.7.1837 (sometimes "St. Leonards Shoreditch" in early listings).
Abolished : 1.4.1965 (succeeded by Hackney district).
Sub-districts : Haggerston; Haggerston East; Haggerston West; Holywell; Hoxton New Town; Hoxton Old Town; St. Leonards; Shoreditch; Shoreditch North East; Shoreditch North West; Shoreditch South; Shoreditch South West


As you can see, Haggerston was covered by Shoreditch, so I think your instinct for the Shoreditch registration was correct, despite the mistranscription.


What was the occupation for George on the marriage certificate? Is it anything to do with book making/printing,etc - although he may well have changed occupations.


EDIT - could be bootmaking.......

Who were the witnesses?

Here is an 1891 census for the family from the above baptism

1891 England Census
about Elizabeth Ford Name: Elizabeth Ford
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1875
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: George Ford
Mother's name: Mary A Ford
Gender: Female
Where born: Hackney, London, England

Civil Parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: West Hackney
Town: Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 131 Shacklewell Lane

Occupation: Laundry assistant

Condition as to marriage: Single

Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: West Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
George Ford 27 ...bootmaker....born Hackney
Mary A Ford 36
Elizabeth Ford 16
Emma Ford 14 ....junior domestic servant.....born Hackney


The age for George must be a mistranscription!!!


Marriage for George Foord and Mary Ann

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about George Foord Name: George Foord
Age: Full Age
Estimated birth year: abt 1872
Spouse Name: Mary Ann Spencer
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 08 Jul 1872
Parish: St John the Baptist, Hoxton
County: Middlesex
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: Edward Foord ....shoemaker
Spouse Father Name: Joseph Spencer ...cabinet maker

Grooms occupation - rivetter
Grroms address - 69 Cambridge Street

Bride was a minor at marriage - ie under 21
Bride's address - 24 Union Street

Witnesses - Charles Edwards and Jane Malin

CherryBlossom. Pretty good. I think you nailed it.
George Edward's occupation on the marriage cert is given as Bootmaker.
The witnesses are 'Jack Jackson' and Emma Foord'

Here are the Foords in 1881

1881 England Census
about Emma Foord Name: Emma Foord
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1877
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: George Foord
Mother's name: Mary A. Foord
Gender: Female
Where born: Hackney, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 69 Pritchards Rd
Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: South Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 3a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
George Foord 23 ...bootmaker....born Hackney
Mary A. Foord 25 ...born Shoreditch
Geo. Foord 8 ...born Hackney
Lizzie Foord 6 ...born Hackney
Emma Foord 4 ....born Hackney

Here is the second one
My paternal grandmother.

Born Jane Whetcombe.
On 4 August 1895 she married Abraham Roake at St James Church in the parish of Edmonton. I have the marriage cert for Jane and Abraham. Her age is given as 22 which puts her birth year as 1873. Her father’s name is given as George Henry Whetcombe (deceased). His occupation is given as 'Brick Maker'.

Between 1896 and 1915 they had 10 children of whom my father, Abraham James, (Abraham seems to have been a traditional name in the Roake family for eldest sons. Fortunately I managed to avoid it) was the fourth child and eldest son.

I cannot find any BMD entry for her birth. I am beginning to doubt that she was born in England. I have some information showing her father as being born in Calcutta in 1832. Jane’s mother was Jane Henley before marriage and the1901 census shows Jane senior aged 65 living with her daughter’s family at 13 Angel Road Edmonton.

I have found 3 death registrations for Jane Roake but none of them fit my grandmother. I do not remember Jane at all. My sister though, who is older than me does remember her. I don’t know where to go next on this one. I think Whetcombe may be an Irish surname so was she born in Ireland?
EDIT- Forgot to add. Jane was one of two. Her twin was George Henry after their father.

This may be the baptism for George Foord

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about George Foord Name: George Foord
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1852
Baptism Date: 10 Oct 1852
Father's name: Edward Foord
Mother's name: Hannah Foord
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Leonard
Borough: Hackney

Date of birth on record - 13th September 1852
Fathers occupation - cordwainer (which is something to do with shoemaking I think)
Address - 6 William Street


I think there may have been some confusion on George's marriage - perhaps he should have been listed as the minor and not Mary Ann???

This may be the 1891 for Jane Whetcomb/Whitcombe

1891 England Census
about Jane Whitcombe Name: Jane Whitcombe
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: George H Whitcombe
Mother's name: Jane Whitcombe
Gender: Female
Where born: Edmonton, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Edmonton
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 21 Claremont Street

Occupation: domestic servant

Condition as to marriage: Single

Registration district: Edmonton
Sub-registration district: Edmonton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
George H Whitcombe 59 ...general labourer...born Calcutta
Jane Whitcombe 57 ...born Stoke Newington
George H Whitcombe 17 ...born Edmonton
Jane Whitcombe 17 ...born Edmonton

This may be Jane's birth mistranscribed. Also looks like she and George Henry were twins

Births Dec 1873 (>99%)

WITCOMB George Henry Edmonton 3a 226
WITCOMB Jane Edmonton 3a 226



George senior's death, in the same year as Jane's marriage

Deaths Mar 1895
Whetcombe George Henry 61 Edmonton 3a 302

OK so that’s why I couldn’t find her. The surname is badly misspelt. I will get the birth cert to be 100% sure.
Thanks again to everybody for all the efforts. 3 projects successfully completed.

QUESTION. How do I contact you again when I have the marriage cert for Henry Houchin and Helen Mason? TonyR

Click on Community and select Board Summary - on the left hand side under Tools you will see My Threads. Click on this and you will see all the posts you have made or contributed to.

Select the post called "Search for Houchin" and just post a reply as you have been doing and it will come up to the top of the Trying to Find board and will also get bumped up our list of threads.

Mmmm - back to the Whetcomb's - in 1881 George has given his place of birth as Strood, Kent, rather than India.....

1881 England Census
about Jane Whitecomb Name: Jane Whitecomb
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: George H. Whitecomb
Gender: Female
Where born: Ball...D, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Edmonton
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address: 24 Chauncey St The Hyde
Condition as to marriage: Married
Registration district: Edmonton
Sub-registration district: Edmonton
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
George H. Whitecomb 48....brickmaker...born Strood, kent
Jane Whitecomb 45 ...born Balls Pond, Middlesex
George H. Whitecomb 8 ...born Edmonton
Jane Whitecomb 8 ...born Edmonton

Posting this 1851 as one for your notes - will need further investigation.

George H Witcomb - born in the East Indies living in Strood, Kent in 1851

1851 England Census
about George H Witcomb Name: George H Witcomb
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1832
Relation: Head
Mother's name: Maria Witcomb
Gender: Male
Where born: East Indies, Belize

Civil Parish: Strood
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Registration district: North Aylesford
Sub-registration district: Northfleet
ED, institution, or vessel: 4b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 99
Household Members: Name Age
George H Witcomb 19 ...unmarried....labourer
Maria Witcomb 63 ....born Middlesex, London
William Ellis 21 ...visitor
Frederic Chittenden 20 ...visitor


Will see what I can find in India later on - just off to Hobbycraft!!

Possible marriage for this George - to a Jane!!

Groom's Name George Henry Whitcombe
Bride's Name Jane Henley
Marriage Date 25 Nov 1855
Marriage Place Strood Near Rochester,Kent,England

Indexing Project (Batch) Number M13132-2
System Origin England-ODM
Source Film Number 992463
Reference Number



EDIT - have checked the original image of this marriage on Medway Cityark and the name is actually Whetcombe.

Church - St Nicholas of Myra, Strood

Grooms age - 23 - occupation labourer
Grooms father - Samuel Whetcombe - occupation looks like hairdresser

Brides age - 20
Brides father - John Henley - occupation labourer

So the ages at marriage match the ages of George and Jane Whetcombe on the census.

Possibly the death for George Henry's mother - the death certificate may state that she is the widow of ?????, which may give you the name of George's father. As will the marriage certificate for George to Jane.

Deaths Sep 1854
Whitcombe Maria N. Aylesford 2a 219
Buried 23rd August 1854 St Nicholas of Myra, Strood - aged 65

Deaths Sep 1846
Whetcombe Samuel Nth Aylesford 5 364
Buried 15th September 1846 St Nicholas of Myra, Strood - aged 56

Possible marriage for this couple

Pallot's Marriage Index for England: 1780 - 1837
Name: Maria Whetcombe
Spouse: Saml Whetcombe
Marriage Date: 1821
Parish: Chelsea St Lukes

CherryBlossom, MadMeg, Flick, Astra

If you remember searching for the family of Henry Houchin?

I now have the marriage certificate for Henry and Helen Mason.

Married 22 December 1915. Surprisingly (and strangely) it gives Henry’s father’s name as Frank Houchin. He was deceased at the time of the marriage and his occupation is given as ‘Ships Carpenter’. Marriage took place in St Monica’s Chapel Shoreditch, which appears to be Roman Catholic.

There’s a mystery here.

If Henry’s mother Phoebe got the name Houchin by marriage what was her maiden name? Why doesn’t Frank Houchin appear on Henry’s birth certificate? Who then are the Houchins in Hewlett Road where Henry was born?

Another anomaly: The marriage cert gives Henry’s age as 22 years. Henry was born in 1889 and in 1915 would have been 26 not 22. Could an error of 4 years appear on a marriage certificate?

Comments Suggestions please.

NB have to go out soon so cannot come back to this until later today.

Many Thanks TonyR