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Hello Graham and welcome to the boards.

If you are looking for connections on this site, the best thing to do is to put the names you are researching into the Search Trees box above to see if anyone else has them in their tree.

If you find a connection, you can contact the tree owners. Regards. Cx.

GRAHAM

This is an OLD thread which you have dug up

If you wish to try to make contact with Victor.........click on his name, and send him a message

Although Victor seemed to lose interest, as he didn't bother to acknowledge the replies on page two of his thread.................

My name is Graham Dawes
My family tree goes back to Isle of Scilly about 1709
The names you mentioned refer I think to about four generation back and are about a brother of my G G G grandfather John Dawes
William Dawes born 8/12/1805 married Elizabeth Nance in 1833
Three children William John- Elizabeth- Margaret Jane.
However the problem is that they seem to lack imagination with names and all seem to use William, John , Richard they keep coming up after their fathers name.

Good grief!

Possibly she was a wealthy widow and became wealthier each time. ;)


edit

Urgh. I just went back to my FreeBMD tab and realized the reason I didn't find her third marriage was that I'd searched for Frabces Sarah Cater ... I really do need to get some sleep ...

Marriages Jun 1880 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Banyard Jane Poplar 1c 906
Cater Frances Sarah Poplar 1c 906
Duncan Henry Poplar 1c 906
Newby Alfred Poplar 1c 906

Lol, looks like she married again!, yep, image says Henry Duncan, brother George H, witness)

Oops! And in one fell swoop, Chris brings my theory crashing down -- the remarriage of Fances Sarah Lloyd Moore.

Possibly:

Deaths Dec 1871
Cater John 52 Poplar 1c 455



Well, maybe I'm doing better on William Dawes. ;)

Watcha think of this one?

1841 -- I don't see the household in 1851 (or any individual from it) but I've only done a quick search:

Name: William Dawes
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Where born: Cornwall, England
> occupation: shipwright

Civil Parish: St Mary
Hundred: Scilly Isles
County/Island: Cornwall

William Dawes 35
Elizebeth Dawes 30
Elizebeth Dawes 4
William Dawes 2


There is also this older household in the same location:

William Dawes 65 - farmer
Sarah Dawes 60 - widow in 1851
Richard Dawes 25 - in 1851, unmarried schoolmaster in Probus, Cornwall
Sarah Dawes 25 - with mother in 1851


Dawes (and variants) is definitely a Cornish surname. Maybe it was only William who was really from there.


Name: Richard Dawes
Baptism/Christening Date: 29 Aug 1812
Baptism/Christening Place: Scilly Islands, Cornwall, England
Father's Name: Wm. Dawes
Mother's Name: Sarah
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I02200-6
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1596181
Reference Number: p66
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Seems to have been submitted several times -- but there is an extracted record with the same info, spelled Daws, batch no. P02206. In that batch, there is a William Dawes 1805 with same parents. The batch also has a Sally Dawes 1815 daughter of parents Richard and Sally. No marriages found for either set of parents. But the names Richard and William certainly do figure prominently!

Name: John Cater
Age: Full Age
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Spouse Name: Frances Sarah Moore
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 17 Jul 1861
Parish: All Saints, Poplar
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: John Cater
Spouse Father Name: Charles Lloyd

(he a widower, her a widow, fathers occ. Shipwright)

Just saw this...

Name: George Henry Lloyd
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1851
Baptism Date: 21 May 1851
Father's name: Charles Lloyd
Mother's name: Frances Lloyd
Parish or Poor Law Union: Poplar All Saints
Borough: Tower Hamlets

(birthdate 11th Sept. 1843, fathers occ. Mariner)

Name: Frances Sarah Lloyd
Spouse Name: Robert John Moore
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 22 Jul 1846
Parish: St Mary Magdalene, Woolwich
County: Kent
Borough: Greenwich
Father Name: Charles Lloyd
Spouse Father Name: Robert Moore

(both fathers Occs, Shipwright)

Chris :)

Well now let's not forget that Flick did the original searching and I built on what she found! Teamwork, that's the watchword around here. ;)

"I assumed that Robert Moore was alive in 1841 (out to sea)"

He didn't marry Frances Sarah Lloyd until 1846, so I'd say so. ;)

I meant the husband of Frances Lloyd Sr (the mother in the 1841 household). The 1841 doesn't show marital status so we can't tell whether she was a widow or a woman whose husband was absent on census night. She reported that she was a widow in 1851. What I was getting at was whether the George Lloyd birth certificate would be a reliable indication of his father's identity. I would guess it was, and the mother wasn't widowed in 1841 yet. Just a guess, and no way of confirming (depending on what the birth cert said).

Unfortunately even the death certificates for the six Mr Lloyds who died in Poplar 1841-1851 might not help. At the time, they rarely stated age or occupation. If the informant was the spouse, that might establish identity. I'd guess at the husband being Thomas rather than William, since that was the name of the eldest son in the 1841 household.

It sounds like they weren't a destitute family, with occupations like shipwright and mariner.

If they're your family ... ;)

I would get the George Lloyd birth cert and the Lloyd+Moore marriage certificate definitely. And tell us what they say!

Yes! Lloyd/Moore is what I meant. Everything seems to fall into place, whereas I only hit brick walls before your help. Thank you.
One of WRM Dawes professions he undertook in South Australia (he had many), was Captain of a ship, shipping ore out of Port Wakefield, to Port Adelaide (I think). Just local trade anyway. So the Moore's and Dawes were probably neighbours/acquaintances working in the same profession.
Yes, I assumed that Robert Moore was alive in 1841 (out to sea), in fact, I found a death record for him in Jun Qtr 1851 (Vol.5 Page 1[16]7). What month of the year was the 1851 Census taken?
By the way, our Passenger Lists online for South Australia, are crap, to say the least! Is there a reliable source in England of passengers leaving your shores? The ship in question is "Deborah". Both WRM Dawes (1851/2) and Frances Lloyd/Moore were supposed to have travelled to South Aust. on this ship, Frances a few years later (c1853) ???
This is fun!

Frances Sr has no husband in 1841 or 1851 -- but has an 8-yr-old child in 1851.

Son Richard's age varies so much it's impossible to guess at a birth for him. But since the household ws in Poplar in 41 and 51, this is the only birth that fits for son George.

Births Dec 1842
Lloyd George Henry Poplar 2 311

Now, who knows whom Frances Sr might have stated as his father?

But it would be interesting to see. Just in case it matched the father on Frances Sarah Lloyd's marriage certificate. Widows certainly did name their deceased husbands as their children's fathers. ;) It's also possible that the husband was living in 1841, and on a vessel, for instance.

There are 6 Lloyd deaths in Poplar 1841-1851 ... 3 Thomas-s and 3 William-s ...

*If* these are your people, of course.

I also meant to say: I think Cornwall, and Penzance in particular, were very familiar place names in Australa. Portsea/Landport may have been less so. Penzance may have been a convenient answer to the question of where born.

Btw, the 1851 census for this Lloyd household:

Frances Lloyd 41 Widow - born Portsea
> Thomas Lloyd 20 - born Landport, Surrey - shipwright
Richard Lloyd 16 - born Poplar
George Lloyd 8 - born Poplar

The two others Ancestry has crammed into their household are apparently unrelated "inmates" (?) , a shipwright and a mariner. Poplar was a docks area. So Frances's husband may well have been on vessels. Portsea was of course another seagoing locale.


Landport/Portsea:

http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/place_page.jsp?p_id=20336

What's all this then?!

What line of research -- which bits of what I posted?

I love my theories, but they're always just offered as possibilities to explore. ;)

Are you meaning the Frances Sarah Lloyd + Robert John Moore bit??

Share!

If it's Lloyd + Moore, certainly you need that marriage certificate for starters.

2 private trees on ancestry
for Richard Manley Dawes

Hi JaneyCanuck
Sorry! But I think my info is incorrect. I have researched your line of research, and I have come to the conclusion, that it is the correct line. My g.g.grandmother Frances seems to have told a lot of 'porkys' - for whatever reason, I cannot fathom!
I have passed your info onto other researchers here in Australia, so they can add their input!
Thank you again,
Victor3

Well, Victor, if you'd given us that info (Emily's year and place of birth) to start with, I wouldn't have been hunting for the birth as I did!

If there's anything to the family story, possibly Frances and William hightailed it to Australia when she changed her mind about the brother.

Hi Janey Canuck

Researched SA Passenger lists for Frances Moore and Robert Moore - no results.
However, researched deaths FreeBMD and found one for Robert Moore @ Greenwich
1851. So if this was Frances first husband, she was a widow when you immigrated to South Australia, OR, William Richard Manley Dawes had married her, OR, she travelled under her Maiden name, and they may or may not have got married in Australia when they embarked ??? As there is no passenger list on arrival at Port Adelaide, we may never know. Unless the passenger list on arrival in Victoria can shed some light!?

Hi Janey Canuck

Emily died 26.7.1910 and she was supposedly 46 yrs. old. = 1864. But seem her mother, Frances, altered her age, for what ever reason, perhaps we shouldn't take what is on her headstone as being correct. I would accept 1859, but 1849 seems unlikely. It has alway been assumed Emily was born here in Australia, but her birth not registered.
Funny you should say that Frances or William could have been married to someone else - the story goes (in the Family) that Frances was supposed to marry William's brother! Elder brother ??
Regarding the 'Moore' theory, I will have to research the South Australian Passenger lists. They are online, so I will get back to you later, on that one!
Thank you,
You are most helpful!
victor3

This person in 1851 matches the details for Frances Jr in 1851:

Name: Frances Sarah Moore
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Robert John Moore
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Landport, Hampshire, England

Civil Parish: Poplar

Robert John Moore 29 - shipwright
Frances Sarah Moore 22
John Muckle 23


Marriages Sep 1846
Lloyd Frances Sarah Greenwich 5 280
Moore Robert John Greenwich 5 280


They aren't in the 1861 census that I can see. If that were Frances, she could have emigrated as a married woman with her husband.

Knowing approximate dates for the eldest children of Frances and William Dawes could help here. Oh, and the other one's name ... Giving detailed info is the best way to get help!

Do you know approximately when Emily was born?

I wonder about this one:

Births Mar 1849
DAWS Emily W Ham 12 323

Poplar and West Ham are very close.

You should not expect to find consistent spelling of surnames at that time. Also, when people emigrated and there was no one around who knew how their names were spelled, a spelling often got assigned that wasn't the same as the spelling back home. (That's how a friend of mine's family in the Kentucky area became Marcum in the 1600s -- having been Markham in England. ;) )

It's also always possible that either Frances or William was married to someone else, before leaving for Australia.

I agree that I wouldn't discount the Davies as a mistranscription of Dawes -- is it possible to view the original image of that record? I found a Jarvis mistranscribed as Davies the other day. ;)