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Local churches?

I checked for marriages of your grandfather's brother under the stepfather's surname (assuming he did stay with his mother) - there are one in Liverpool 1970 and one in Abingdon Berkshire, 1976, and also one in Newbury Berkshire in 1996. The one who married in 1996 (probably the same one as the 1976 marriage) is on the electoral roll in Berkshire in 2002 only (which would be consistent with a death in late 2001); his wife is also listed in 2003. The one who married in Liverpool is on the 2011 electoral roll.

This death matches the brother's birth for middle initial and quarter of registration:

Name: Michael Leslie Main
Birth Date: 21 Aug 1940
Death Registration Month/Year: Nov 2001
Age at death (estimated): 61
Registration district: Southampton
Inferred County: Hampshire
Register number: D63A
District and Subdistrict: 5001D
Entry number: 197

There is no birth to match that name in that year.

If you got the brother's birth certificate, you would be able to rule that death in or out. If it were him, the death certificate could also provide the name of a family member as informant.


I will PM you info about the 1996 marriage/wife. Someone here at GR seems to have her in their tree.

How would I find out if he was baptised or christened?

Aargh, that was Ann who said Rosa Davies back early on page 1. Ignore me!

Ah yes, she married as Kathleen M Shufflebotham (I'd been trying that combo as well but disregarded that 1950 marriage I guess). It does help to say things like that, Martin -- things you know that we don't, things that are different from how one would assume. Martha didn't marry -- Kathleen did!

Martin, I do think you should follow Ann's suggestion and look into a baptism record for your grandfather, just in case there is mention of his father.

Good luck!

No problems **Ann** thanks so much for your help and Janey and everyone else. I think I am just going to ask my uncle to give his DNA and hope for the best keep you posted.

No Janey............just getting bearings nearest to 1916 as to where the family were based..........re maybe baptism in family church, as a lot of Welsh folk if poss would have taken this ancestral route. In that where the mother was baptised then her children may be as well if she stayed in her home town.

Martin........no problem as I said just trying to get bearings, you know who your family are!

Annx

Where has Rosa come from I'm confused.

Martha was born 1916 in Pontyclun she married a William George Main in 1950 in Plymouth she died 1999 in Plymouth. Martha Father is definitely William Henry and her mother is Sarah Ann Davies NOT ROSA.

Ann -- earlier post -- "She was registered SHUFFLEBOTTOM I think, mothers ms DAVIES (ROSA)".

We're not actually searching for info about Martha's ancestry, are we?

edit -- er, what, Martin? You're changing the mother's name now?

But still -- we aren't looking for her ancestors -- or are we?

No her parents were William Henry Shufflebottom and Sarah Ann Davies. If there is a Martin and Edwin living with Rosa and John then that family could be another possibility but otherwise they are the incorrect family. I definitely know my Grandfather had an Uncle Martin and Edwin.

I see the birth of Martha's other child, but there's no trace of him marrying or dying with that name.

For deaths after 1969, exact date of birth (as reported by the informant) and full name (not just middle initial) are included in the deaths index, so it can be searched by given name(s) and date of birth alone. If you get Martha's birth certificate, and if she died after 1969 (which seems likely), you might be able to identify her death even without knowing her surname.

If a match was found, you could look for a marriage to that surname (although women's deaths are sometimes also registered under the surname they ere known as, even if they weren't married to the partner whose surname it was). Possibly your grandfather's brother's surname was changed to a stepfather's surname -- so this might lead you to him.

I've tried searching for Martha that way, but without an exact date of birth it's a clumsy search.

Were her parents a John & Rosa Davies?

Yes you are **Ann** the name was shufflebottom but it is seen as shufflebotham also. I am sure someone in the family knows something but I have only been in touch with one family member who is only related by marriage to my Grandfather. I don't know where to start looking for the others and asking them about it as it was a scandal and i'm unsure if they would help.

All your mother's brother would have to do is swab the inside of his cheek with a Q-tip thing -- someone who volunteered to do it for me (an unrelated person with a surname that may be in my family; I've never followed through) called it "spitting on a stick".

You would probably then assure him that his own identity would *not* be disclosed to the testing facility or the DNA project organization, or to anyone at all ever without his permission. You'd submit it simply as sample "Martin1", for instance.

It could then be compared with samples in databases, and you would be informed of matches (assuming permission from the other party, I imagine).

I'm pretty sure this was the outfit being used by a project organizer I talked to a few years ago:

http://www.familytreedna.com/Default.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FamilyTreeDNA (obviously a blurb)

Right, Terry Barton - he wanted me to be the administrator for this group:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/monk/default.aspx

Hah, something else to demand my time -- I couldn't, but someone did take it on (I think he's posted about it at this site). As you can see, it's a little, um, dormant. And the main problem with most of these groups is that they are heavily US-centric. For instance, my Moncks (or not Moncks) are English. Almost all the names in the results there:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/monk/default.aspx?section=yresults

are probably of German origin -- German names anglicized to Monk in the US. But you can see how the results are not traceable to any person. (Do not ask me to interpret any of that!)

You'd have to consult with an administrator of any organization you used to see how to submit DNA results with an unknown surname. Maybe you'd submit them as Shufflebotham, and then they'd be compared with everything else. Note that in the Monk results there are several surnames unrelated to Monk with DNA that matches Monk.

I'm not encouraging or discouraging. I do think that existing databases are likely too small to find you any close relations. But having the analysis done now while the male-line descendant is living would mean taking an opportunity that might not be available in future when there might be better chances of finding a match.

Right Martin............so you have the family in 1911. Your Martha Kathleen was registered SHUFFLEBOTTOM 1916...........am I correct?

If I could get my mothers brothers permission for his DNA to be tested I might get something Maybe? It is my Mothers fathers father I am trying to find, My mother does have a brother but they are not in touch that often I think he is my only hope. **Ann** Martha's home town was Pontyclun so I would imagine my grandfathers father was from Pontyclun also. **Ann** I don't know about the family being in caerphilly in 1911, I have found them living in Pontyclun at 54 Loftus Terrace in 1911.

That's true Ann -- I've seen that here before too.

And I had a thought.

If this is your mother's father's father in question -- does your mother have brothers?

Their DNA (or their sons') would work for ancestor matching.

Just a thought...........A friend of mine a few years ago sent for a BC this also had no fathers name in column........but the baptism record did. The vicar must have decided with or without permission to enter it, however the time scale was much earlier.

Annx

The family in 1911 are in Caerphilly.

Martin, to be blunt, there just isn't a snowball's chance that you will determine the identity of his father through research. Only family members with direct knowledge would be able to provide that information.

Almost all of us run into this at some point in our trees -- the child of an unknown father. Most of us are lucky enough to have it happen farther back the line.

You mention DNA, which could in fact help you, if a lot of conditions were met.

You are a male-line descendant -- you are male, looking for the male ancestor of a male ancestor. This is the only scenario in which DNA analysis works. So you're in the door (and ahead of many people in your situation, who are shut out).

You could theoretically submit your DNA results to one of the organizations doing family DNA projects, and ask for it to be compared to, well, everything on file. You might strike it lucky and have it match with a surname group. Or a match might appear years in the future, as databases grow. Other than the expense, there's no reason not to give it a try!

Uh oh -- or did I get that wrong? Your grandfather is the father of your father, or your mother?

If he's your mother's father, you're left outside the door, I'm afraid. It's only straight male-line ancestors that it works for. Your DNA would get you matches with people descended from your father's father's father's father, for instance, but change one of them to mother, and the chain ends there.