Find Ancestors

Sorry to have been away

I have traced Lionel and his siblings. He moved back to the Nottingham area after "Fredericks" death and marr.Emma Bowskill in 1884, but seems to have left her pretty quick. He is then living with his mother Martha and takes up with Daisy Susan Swallow with whom he has 4 Children between 1897-1908. He marr. Daisy in1937 and died in 1943 in Nottingham.

His brother Alfred Frederick marr. Mary Searle in Brighton in 1897 and settled there.

His two sisters remained spinsters in Nottingham and in Kelly's directory 1941 has them living in West Bridgford Nottingham. Also in the 1956 directory has Annie at the same address on her own.

Albert Edward was an apprentice butcher and in 1897 enlisted in the Grenadier Guards, in Whitehall, for 12 years and served in the Sudan. He was demobbed in 1909 but re enlisted at the outbreak of WW1. He survived the war and was demobbed in Germany in 1919. Giving his home address in Nottingham. Thats as far as i have got...............so far !

Have you got any bmd or census information about any of these siblings to post here?
Thanks

I think ALFRED b.1833 is Frederick. I think he assumed the name FREDERICK for some reason between 1851 and 1862. Perhaps he was abroad, in the army or prison. It baffles me why there seems to me no record of a FREDERICK or ALFRED or FREDERICK ALFRED FOR 1861.

I am looking at LIONEL JAMES's siblings, FREDERICK'S son, and also RICHARD ANNIS BREEZE of ALTON, HANTS to try and trace any living ancestors who may have info. about ALFRED

LIONEL'S siblings were ALFRED FREDERICK b.c1866, ANNIE REBECCA b1869, SARAH MAUDE b1871, and ALBERT EDAWARD b 1873

Thread alert!

New Norfolk records on Family Search

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/tips_board/thread/1255870

Julie

Oh busy bees!
Burnham appears to be in Kings Lynn registration district.
So if Frederick and Alfred are the same person he would have to be born before Richard died in 1835 OR he was born after 1835 to a different father before Ann married Samuel Huggins?

I often wonder how people met. Martha appears to be in Gorton Lancashire in 1861 & a year later she is back in Chapel En Le Frith marrying Frederick. So where is he in 1861???

In 1851 Martha is with her parents(father= Thomas) at the Packhorse Inn in Chapel. Just down the road, the licensee of the Royal Oak is a Hannah Timms. With her are various family members including a brother, George Timms and a niece, Hannah Monk (wedding witnesses?)

By 1857 someone else is at the Packhorse but there is now a Thomas Timms at the Royal Oak. See here:

http://bryanspink.web.officelive.com/pubs/html/high_peak.html#Chapel-en-le-Frith

By 1861 Hannah Timms has married Ralph Beardmore and moved to Peak Forest and niece Hannah Monk is with her there too. (Ancestry has her as Mink).

A Charles Timms is now managing the Kings Arms Hotel in Chapel.

So running pubs seems to be a Timms family theme but I cannot find Thomas Timms in 1861 & he doesn't seem to have died until late 1862. I

So Graham please do tell if you have found him! ( I thought Frederick might possibly be lodging with them).

Sorry all for not posting the census info to go with all of this but I haven't worked out how to cut and paste using an i pad yet.......it's touch screen and when I try to copy I get the whole screen - I'll get the hang of it eventually :)

Julie

??????????????????????


record title: England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991

name: Richard Annias Breeze
gender: Male
burial date: 24 Apr 1835
burial place: Burnham-Sutton-Cumburnham-Ulph, Norfolk, England
indexing project (batch) number: I05384-3
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1565791




sylvia

???????????????????

for what it's worth


spouse: Ann Scotney
marriage: 10 Aug 1828 — St. Peter, Wesbech, Cambridge, England


groom's name: Richard Annis Breese
bride's name: Ann Scotney
marriage date: 10 Aug 1828
marriage place: St. Peter, Wesbech, Cambridge, England
indexing project (batch) number: M13850-5
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1040590





and jsut to show that there is a connection, Ann Scotney was named as the mother on Richard Annis' baptism in 1835





HOWEVER


I still haven't found Alfred!

?????????

record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

name: Richard Annis Breese
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 19 Jul 1835
baptism/christening place: INDEPENDENT,BURNHAM-WESTGATE,NORFOLK,ENGLAND
birth date: 23 Jun 1835
father's name: Richard Annis Breese
mother's name: Anne Scotney
indexing project (batch) number: C07491-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 596995



but then we find the following, with the same apparent parents


residence: Cambridge, England
parents: Richard Annis Breeze, Ann

name: Leonora Breeze
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 27 Dec 1831
baptism/christening place: Wisbeach-St Peter, Wisbeach, Cambridge, England
father's name: Richard Annis Breeze
mother's name: Ann
indexing project (batch) number: C00466-3
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 1040588


residence: Wisbeach, Cambridge, England
parents: Richard Annis Breese, Ann

name: Leonard Breese
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 21 Dec 1829
baptism/christening place: St. Peter's, Wisbeach, Cambridge, England
father's name: Richard Annis Breese
mother's name: Ann
indexing project (batch) number: C02188-9
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1040587



and there's still no record of an Alfred or a Frederick!



sylvia

I can't find Alfred's baptism on that fmailysearch site ..... but here is Leonora


record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

name: Leonora Breeze
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 07 May 1831
baptism/christening place: Burnham-Westgate, Norfolk, England
father's name: Annas Breeze
mother's name: Anne
indexing project (batch) number: I03254-8
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 156579




sylvia

1871 census for married Leonora (just for reference if this family is correct) -

COPPEN, Isaac Head M 38 1833 Essex
COPPEN, Leonora Annice Wife F 40 1831 Norfolk
COPPEN, Alfred Leonard Son M 4 1867 Middlesex
COPPEN, Ellen Daughter F 2 1869 Middlesex
COPPEN, Edith Kate Daughter F 0 1871 Middlesex
WILTSHIRE, Annie Visitor F 19 1852 Hampshire
RG number:
RG10 Piece:
191 Folio:
16 Page:
25

Registration District:
Hampstead Sub District:
Hampstead Enumeration District:
9 Ecclesiastical Parish:

Civil Parish:
St John Hampstead Municipal Borough:
Address:
Money's Yard, St John Hampstead County:
London, Middlesex

Marriage details -
Marriages Sep 1863 (>99%)
**** BREEZE Leonora Annies Marylebone 1a 905
**** Coppen Isaac Marylebone 1a 905
Hosier Mary Ann Marylebone 1a 905
Tomlin William Marylebone 1a 905

other record from that familysearch site

www.familysearch.org/#form=advanced-records


record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

name: Robert Frederic Huggins
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 1849
baptism/christening place: , ALTON, HAMPSHIRE, ENGLAND
father's name: Samuel Huggins
mother's name: Ann
indexing project (batch) number: C14662-2
system origin: England-VR
source film number: 1041297



sylvia

This is what we are up against - this is Leonora Breeze in 1861.
COLT, George N Head Married M 37 1824 Barrister At Law
Cheltenham Gloucester
COLT, Georgana Ellen Wife Married F 30 1831
St Clement
Middlesex
COLT, Florence Ellen Daughter F 6 1855
St George Bloomsbury
Middlesex
COLT, Edith G Daughter F 5 1856
St John Hampstead
Middlesex
COLT, George Brace Son M 3 1858
St Marys Islington
Middlesex
COLT, Maud Isabel Daughter F 2 1859
Islington
COLT Daughter F 0 (1M) 1861
Highgate
Middlesex
HOLES, Susannah Servant Married F 39 1822 Monthly Nurse
Brighton
Sussex
BRENYA, Leonara Servant Unmarried F 32 1829 Cook
Barnham
Norfolk
SIMMONS, Elizabeth Servant Unmarried F 26 1835 Nurse
Croydon
Surrey
WARD, Susan Servant Unmarried F 19 1842 Housemaid
Highgate
Middlesex
RG number:
RG09 Piece:
124 Folio:
155 Page:
52

Registration District:
Pancras Sub District:
6 Kentish Town Enumeration District:
28 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Michaels

Civil Parish:
St Pancras Municipal Borough:
Address:
West Hill, St Pancras County:
London, Middlesex

The original does read BREEZE

from familysearch.org


unfortunately it doesn't give ages or status



record title: England Marriages, 1538–1973

groom's name: Samuel Huggins
bride's name: Ann Breeze
marriage date: 04 Oct 1846
marriage place: Fakenham, Norfolk, England
indexing project (batch) number: I03227-8
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 1595483




and Lynne is quite right ................. Son-in-Law was commonly used instead of saying Stepson


so Alfred and Richard are the sons of Ann, born before her marriage, but accepted by Samuel


sylvia

I think that the boys being listed as sons in law should be stepsons?

I found this marriage -

Marriages Dec 1846 (>99%)
Allen Henry Walsingham 13 875
**** Breeze Ann Walsingham 13 875
Creamer Charles Walsingham 13 875
Huggins Henry Walsingham 13 875
**** HUGGINS Samuel Walsingham 13 875
Lane Frances Walsingham 13 875
Lewis Elizabeth Walsingham 13 875
Spooner Charlotte Walsingham 13 875

I think that possibly Ann has adjusted her age, slightly?

Working on the theory Frederick, might not have been Frederick and that he had a vivid imagination and that his death cert, says he was 51. I looked at the 1841 census for ALFRED BREEZE. he is there aged 7. Mother ANN (40) Looks like LEONARD (12) LEONORA (10) and RICHARD (5) IN BURNHAM NORFOLK. Ties in with 51 years

In 1851 ALFRED and RICHARD are living in ALTON ,HANTS listed as son in laws ? of SAMUEL HUGGINS hIs wife ANNE and their one year old son.............you got it FREDERICK !!!

1861 census, RICHARD carriers on living and working in Alton but there is no record ( I can find ) of FREDERICK or ALFRED until FREDERICK ALFRED , son of a Gentleman, pops up to marry MARTHA TIMMS, a DERBYSHIRE farmers daughter in 1862

Am I making the hole to fit the peg or what ? I would love to hear your opinions.

Thanks

GB

Graham

the fact that it does not say deceased on the marriage certificate for Lionel does not mean that he was not dead


It all depends on what the Vicar asked


What is your father's name and occupation?

vs

What is your father's name, occupation, and is he still alive?



many many people have found themselves on a wild goose chase looking for a living father when he was dead



The reverse can also apply of course ............ someone might say father is dead, when he was not. That often means a family split.



But I do have to say that it is looking more as if Lionel was a figment of Frederick Alfred's imagination


The fact that F Alfred is a Railway Clerk, while saying that his father was a Gent .......... does imply something happened. Either Lionel died whil F A was young, or he abandoned the family, or he lost all his money, or he's a figment


BTW ..... I posted that information on Frederick Aldous as a means of ruling him out. I had already traced him further forward in the census, and also backwards.

I was in no way suggesting that he was F Alfred


sylvia

Yes. can rule out Frederick Aldous Breeze.

Frederick Alfred Breeze seems to have appeared on his wedding day in 1862 in Chapel en le Frith Derbyshire.

In 1871 the family are living in Quarry lane, Mansfield, Notts.

By 1881 there are living at Whessoe Lane, Darlington

He and Martha had 5 children Lionel James 1863, Alfred Frederick 1866, Annie Rebecca 1869, Sarah Maude 1871 and Albert Edward 1873

Frederick died there on 18th August 1884 and his age is given as 51 on the death certificate. The informant was L J Breeze his son.

Hi Folks

Frederick Aldous Breeze can be ruled out. In 1871 he is in Portsea with his first wife Maria, the birthplace given is wrong but I'm sure it's him. They are spelt Breese. They married in Portsea in 1867.

In 1881,1891 & 1901 he is with Edith although the 1891 has her as Ruth (it does look like Ruth on the image but places of birth plus children's names clinch it). Can't find an appropriate death for Maria. So when he finally married Edith in 1896 he wasn't a bachelor. Widower or Bigamist more like!

Julie

SylvialnCanada

Fredericks occupation on his marriage cert. is that of Railway Clerk. His address is Town End, Chapel -en - le -Frith, Derbyshire.

Thanks
GB

I assume Lionel was alive as the marrige certificate doe's not state otherwise.

What an intriguing scenario, never thought of that possibility. It could explain some descrepencies in his age in some of the records and why I have not found any siblings yet.

Thanks Lynn

GB