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Could you help me locate Frederick & Joseph Ellis living with parent's.

I have located Frederick b1854 as a married man on the 1901 & 1911 Census: married to Esther Jenkins - although I can't find any marriage record. I think he may have had a brother named Joseph Ellis b1863. who also married to Esther Jenkins in 1886: he died in 1891.

Many thanks

Do you mean this bloke?

1901 England Census
Name: Fred Ellis
Age: 47
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Hester Ellis
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, London, England
Civil Parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 214 Arlington Rd

Occupation: Coal Porter

Registration district: St Pancras
Sub-registration district: Regent's Park
Household Members:
Name Age
Fred Ellis 47
Hester Ellis 33 - Islington
Elizabeth Ellis 9 - Islington
Fred Ellis 3 - Pancras
James Ellis 1 - Pancras

Update: Looking at 1891 and the gap between children in 1901 I'd say this would be a recent marriage. Elizabeth may not even be his daughter.

???
1891 England Census
Name: Frederick Ellis
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Sarah Ellis
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, London, England
Civil Parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michaels
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 105 Bayham St

Occupation: Coal Porter

Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Camden Town
Household Members:
Name Age
Frederick Ellis 37
Sarah Ellis 37 - wife; born France

Frederick and Esther may not have married, or at least not before census 1911, as it was illegal to marry your deceased husband's brother until the Deceased Brother's Widow's Marriage Act 1921 was passed.

(Didn't stop it happening, but it was illegal until 1921)

1911

ELLIS, Frederick Head Married M 57 1854 Coal Porter London St Pancras VIEW
ELLIS, Esther Wife Married
25 years F 44 1867 No Occupation London Islington VIEW
ELLIS, Elizabeth Daughter Single F 20 1891 Potting Meat Packer London Islington VIEW
ELLIS, Frederick Son M 13 1898 No Occupation School London St Pancras VIEW
ELLIS, James Son M 11 1900 No Occupation School London St Pancras VIEW
ELLIS, Voilet Daughter M 8 1903 School London St Pancras VIEW
ELLIS, Daisy Daughter F 6 1905 School London St Pancras VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
847 Reference:
RG14PN847 RG78PN30 RD10 SD4 ED6 SN109

Registration District:
Islington Sub District:
Lower Holloway Enumeration District:
6 Parish:
Islington

Address:
86 Brewery Road Islington N County:
London


9 children born, 5 still alive

Marriage for Joseph and Esther:

Name: Joseph Ellis - porter
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Esther Jenkins
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 25 Apr 1886
Parish: St Pancras Old Church
County: Middlesex
Borough: Camden
Spouse Father Name: Alfred Jenkins - soldier

No info on groom's father other than 'dead'.


Witnesses: F. ELLIS L. Jenkins.

1871 England Census
Name: Fredrick Elias [It could be Ellis but the writing is such a scrawl. Doesn't seem to have an 'a' in the name though.]
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Son
Father's name: James Elias
Mother's name: Ann Elias
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: St Pancras
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Kentish Town
Household Members:
Name Age
James Elias 47 - carman; born Bedfordshire
Ann Elias 45 - Stratford, Essex
Edward Elias 21 - carman; Stratford
Fredrick Elias 17 - carman; <<<<<<<
John Elias 14
Elizabeth Elias 11
Joseph Elias 8 <<<<<<<<

Well done Ozi!

I think Frederick may also have been a witness at Joseph's marriage to Esther that I posted above.

Hi,

I didn't know about that Deceased Brother's Widow's Marriage Act. Do you think Frederick could still have been married to Sarah ?


Thank you.

1881 England Census
Name: Joseph Ellis
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Anne Ellis
Gender: Male
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: St Pancras
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 17 Haverstock St

Occupation: Coal Porter

Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Kentish Town
Household Members:
Name Age
Anne Ellis 55 - St Albans, Hertfordshire [Not sure about this as the last person in the previous household is also born Herts, and Anne has a ditto.]
Joseph Ellis 18

Yes, people did still go ahead and do it, possibly more often it was men marrying their deceased wife's sister (THAT was made legal in 1904), but it was technically illegal.

On the other hand if Frederick and Esther were aware of that, and given they both had the same surname anyway , they may have just lived 'over the brush', or married after 1921, but I had a look and couldn't find a later marriage under Ellis & Ellis.

For helpers - quite a lot of info already on this thread:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/records_office/thread/1253794

Hi,

That's great information for the 1871 Census. It looks like them. thank you. Still puzzled by Frederick's marriage to Sarah from France.


I did post again to my previous thread but didn't get any replies, hence new post!

Thanks

This is the important bit from the other thread.
Following on from the previous discussions. I have now received 3 Certificates that have raised more questions than answers.

1) Esther Jenkins married Joseph Ellis on 25/04/1886, on the MC it states his Father was dead.

2) Elizabeth Ellis' BC 25/5/1891- shows that her Mother is Esther Ellis formerly Jenkins - not Sarah Tuvey as I expected. Her Father though is a Joseph Ellis deceased. Joseph died in March 1891

3) On Elizabeth's Brother Frederick's BC 28/01/1898. Father is shown as Frederick Ellis. Not sure if he was Joseph's Brother.

The only MC for Frederick b1854 is with a Sarah Tuvey. I can't find a MC for him and Esther. Not sure if they are the same Frederick or not.

I have also been looking for a Census where both Frederick b1854 and Thomas [this should be Joseph] b1863 appear, to confirm same parents names.

I hope you can help me please

Thank you

Marriage of Frederick to Sarah? (on other thread)

Name: Frederick Ellis - COAL PORTER
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1852
Spouse Name: Sarah Tuvey
Spouse Age: 20
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 22 Sep 1873
Parish: Christ Church, Somers Town
County: Middlesex
Borough: Camden
>>>>Father Name: James Ellis - COAL PORTER
Spouse Father Name: Charles Tuvey- BRICK MAKER


Note father is named James, as per Ozi's family in census 1871.

If you don't have a certain death date for Frederick's first wife Sarah, who according to your other thread may have been in an asylum in 1901, then Frederick may not have been free to marry anyone, as he was still married to Sarah.

1861 England Census
Name: Sarah Tuvey
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Charles Tuvey
Mother's name: Sarah Tuvey
Gender: Female
Where born: Islington, Berkshire, England [Berks has been crossed out but could've been done by the collator. However someone's telling porkies, somewhere along the line.]
Civil Parish: Norwood
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Southall
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address: Brickfields <<<<<<<<<

Registration district: Uxbridge
Sub-registration district: Hayes
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Tuvey 39 - labourer [brick maker in the brick fields?]; Hackney
Sarah Tuvey 38 - Hackney
Mary Tuvey 17
Harriett Tuvey 12
William Tuvey 9
Sarah Tuvey 7
Robert Tuvey 3
John Tuvey 3 MO
William Brown 42
William Jackson 30
Thomas Norman 29

The witnesses at Sarah Tuvey's wedding were William Tuvey and Mary Ann Tuvey, which could tie in with William aged 9, and possibly Mary aged 17 on Ozi's census 1861 post above.

Hi, that's great, the 1871 Census is bringing it all together now.

I'm still not sure if the entry for Sara Ellis in 1901 as an inmate in Dartford is her. Everything leads to her - and the only DC I have been able to find for Sarah Ellis is in 1898. If she died as an inmate would a DC still be registered?

Thank you

Possible baptism?

Name: Sarah Louisa Tuvey
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1856
Baptism Date: 21 Nov 1856
Father's name: Charles Tuvey
Mother's name: Sarah Tuvey
Parish or Poor Law Union: Homerton St Barnabas
Borough: Hackney

Address: Homerton. Father's occupation: Bricklayer