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The link to Fred in the Tree i'm doing is thru Ada Wenham, b.1873, who appears in the 1881 Census along with sisters Florence b. 1876 & Ellen b.1878.
I follow your joint logic about a different Fred? But if this is so, where did the Fred of the 1851 Census disappear to?

that is absolutely possible, I found a friend's family in a census some time ago in exactly that situation, the widowed woman and her children were there under their surname and the man was shown as head of household with the same surname, and that was why my friend had never been able to find him.

....... so as Mike says maybe it was just an assumption and he was someone else completely.

....... except .......

Fred's mum and dad were William Wenham & luenda Weatherhead,
both from Norfolk.

and here they are in 1851

Name: Frederick Wenham
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Luenda Wenham
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Paddington, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
County/Island: Surrey

Luenda Wenham 40 married born Norfolk ...... i would say Luanda
William Wenham 19
Lucinda Wenham 16
Ellen Wenham 12
George Wenham 8
Elizabeth Wenham 6
Frederick Wenham 2
Henry North 19

I can't see a birth for Frederick though and do we know that is the same Frederick?

In 1891 there are three of them for example

Name: Frederick Wenham
Spouse: Hephayibah Wenham <<<
Birth: abt 1849 - London, England
Residence: 1891 - Uxbridge, Uxbridge, Middlesex, England

Name: Frederick Wenham
Spouse: Jane Wenham <<<
Birth: abt 1849 - Clerkenwell, London, England
Residence: 1891 - London, Shoreditch, London, England

Name: Frederick Wenham
Spouse: Laura Wenham <<<
Birth: abt 1850 - London, England
Residence: 1891 - Walthamstow, Essex, England

so I woudld be concerned about sorting them out

Sylvia the same thought crossed my mind.

She was Mrs Wenham, so maybe she just called him her husband and he was assumed to be Mr Wenham.

Is it possible that Frederick took HER name??????????


an early example of emancipation!





sylvia

There is a Public Family Tree on ancestry that ahs James Robert Wenham's parents and siblings, as well as marriage to Hephzibah Huggett


James' were apparnetly James Wenham (1816 – 1852) and Eliza White (1817 – 1894)



No Frederick Wenman shown




sylvia

and it looks as though she died in 1869

Births Mar 1869 (>99%)

Wenham Eliza Caroline Hastings 2b 22


Deaths Jun 1869 (>99%)

Wenham Eliza Caroline 0 Hastings 2b 14




sylvia

Looks like James Robert Wenham and Hepzibah had at least one child:-

from the new familysearch site www.familysearch.org/#form=advanced-records


record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

name: Eliza Caroline Wenham
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 1869
baptism/christening place: HASTINGS, ALL SAINTS, SUSSEX, ENGLAND
father's name: James Robert Wenham
mother's name: Hephzibah
indexing project (batch) number: C14807-3
system origin: England-VR
source film number: 1067173




sylvia

Fred's mum and dad were William Wenham & luenda Weatherhead,
both from Norfolk.
As a bit of History, Will's maternal Grandad James Philo fought at Bunker Hill in the American War of Independence.

I agree that Heph seems to have "changed" horses, but unfortunately Fred drops off the radar between 1861 and 1881.

he is the one who is mistranscribed, Greenwich is in italics, so page number 1456 is wrong ........... well it's worse than that, there is no Frederick Wenman in the GRO index for oct nov dec 1866 quarter.

............ oh, but Wenman is not Wenham

Yes I think we can discount Miss Page.

There is this marriage but can't find a bride...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1866
Wenman Frederick George - Greenwich 1d 1456

Bexhill is nowhere near Battle though if my memory serves me right


best go and google

jax

spose its near enough as I said earlier she died in 1890 anyway

Michael it's very dangerous to "go with " any connection until you check out the children's birth certificates.

Just to eliminate Miss Page born 1849 .....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Household:1881

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Amelia HARRIS Head U Female 33 Yalding, Kent, England Greengrocer
Margarett ASHBY Friend U Female 52 Yalding, Kent, England
Mary GILBERT Cousin U Female 40 Yalding, Kent, England Assistant Greengrocer
************Hephsibah PAGE Cousin U Female 32 Bexhill, Sussex, England Dress Maker
David ASHBY Serv Male 14 East Farleigh, Kent, England Errand Boy
Frederick ROBINSON Boarder Male 13 Orpington, Kent, England Errand Boy


Dwelling 23 Market Place
Census Place Greenwich, Kent, England

Cheers again People XLNT effort!!

To use a "Loydism", having cogitated and conferred, I'm going with the Huggett connection.

Ta, Michael.

Just to confuse matters ....
Is this widow Mrs Wenham ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1876 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HARRIYOTT Emma Eastbourne 2b 93
Lewis Amos Eastbourne 2b 93
Mancer Henry Eastbourne 2b 93
Wenham Hephzibah Eastbourne 2b 93
------------------------------------------------


Household:1881

Henry MANSER Head M Male 27 Willingdon, Sussex, England Blacksmith
************** Hephizibah MANSER Wife M Female 25 Hellingly, Sussex, England
Edwin MANSER Son Male 4 Eastbourne, Sussex, England
Rosa MANSER Daur Female 2 Eastbourne, Sussex, England
Frederick MANSER Son Male 6 m Eastbourne, Sussex, England

We are assuming that James and Frederick were brothers but I can't see a birth for Frederick Wenham c1850 Bethnal Green

yes so far

Deaths Sep 1869
Wenham James Robert 23 Hastings 2b 10


oops Mike added that

was it still against the law to marry your dead husband's brother ? or was that just your dead wife's sister .............

amazing coincidences

in 1871

is this Hep* Page?

Name: Hephzibah Wenham
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1848
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Battle, Sussex, England
Civil Parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
Town: London
County/Island: London

Household Members:
Name Age
Ellen Mudge 43
Rose E J Mudge 8
Caroline S Eldridge 42
Hephzibah Wenham 23 WIDOW
Emily C Page 18 unmarried




this has confused me ......... it looks like Hep* Page married a Wenham unless it is just a coincidence that Emily Page with her .........


no no I see I think ........ Wenham husband of Huggett died? and she lived with his brother maybe? and Emily Page is not related ..............

James Robert Wenham--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth: 18 NOV 1846 All Saints, Hastings, Sussex, England

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: James Wenham
Mother: Eliza



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Sep 1869
Wenham James Robert - 23 - Hastings 2b 10

Cheers People!!!!
Will obviously need time to digest all this info, but it looks GOOD at 1st glance.

M.