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I am trying to find the birth date & place of William Edward Townshend. He was married in Jan 1925 to Florence Selina Cook. Cert shows his age then as 23. His father is shown as James Henry Townshend dec'd, occupation Erector. The only James I can find that would fit in does not show a William as his son in the 1901 or 1911 census. As far as I know William always lived in the South London/Kingston area, whereas James's roots are in Lancashire, although in 1901 (which would be around the time of William's birth) he and his family were in South London/Croydon - returning to Lancashire by the 1911 census. William and Florence had 6 children. Florence died and William remarried Minnie Read in 1940, they went on to have another 4-5 children. William died in August 1968 - his death cert shows age 67. I am not aware that the family ever spoke of any brothers or sisters of William and I cannot find any registration of his birth. He was in the army I believe in WW1 but I have no dates or information. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am wondering if William might have been an illegitimate child of James, perhaps taking his surname but registered with his mother's surname and brought up with her in South London. It's the first hurdle on my search. William Edward Townshend was my grandfather, so I have not gone very far. Thank you in advance.

I think the first thing to do is trace the marriage of James Henry, what was his age and birth place on the 1901/1911 census, and what was his wife's name and place of birth

1911Address: 31 Ash St Farnworth
TOWNSHEND, James Henry Head Married M 48 1863 Erector Of Constructional Ironwork Liverpool Lancashire
TOWNSHEND, Mary Ellen Wife Married F 43 1868 Lee Clough Bolton Lanc
TOWNSHEND, Harold Rothwell Son Single M 18 1893 Erector Of Constructional Ironwork Liverpool Lancashire

Assuming this is the james you are referring to, he seems to have a new wife (married <1 year). no children.

TOWNSHEND, James Henry Head Married M 48 1863 Erector Of Constructional Ironwork Liverpool Lancashire VIEW
TOWNSHEND, Mary Ellen Wife Married F 43 1868 Lee Clough Bolton Lanc VIEW
TOWNSHEND, Harold Rothwell Son Single M 18 1893 Erector Of Constructional Ironwork Liverpool Lancashire VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
23253 Reference:
RG14PN23253 RG78PN1359 RD461 SD1 ED2 SN89

Registration District:
Bolton Sub District:
Farnworth Enumeration District:
2 Parish:
Farnworth

Address:
31 Ash St Farnworth County:
Lancashire

They had been married under 1 year so Mary Ellen was his second wife.

1901. I would imagine if martha has died the children might be with grandparents or another family member? Might be easier to look for one of them.

1901 England Census

Name: James H Townshend
Age: 38
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Martha E Townshend
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Croydon
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Croydon
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Registration district: Croydon
Sub-registration district: Croydon

James H Townshend 38
Martha E Townshend 38
James H Townshend 16
Mary G L Townshend 9
Harold R Townshend 8
Frederick G Townshend 5
Martha E Townshend 6 Months

1901 census - household transcription
Person: TOWNSHEND, James H
Address: 80, Eaton Road, Croydon
TOWNSHEND, James H Head Married M 38 1863 Store Keeper & Yard Foreman (Electrical Works)
Liverpool
Lancashire VIEW
TOWNSHEND, Martha E Wife Married F 38 1863
Liverpool
Lancashire VIEW
TOWNSHEND, James H Son Single M 16 1885 Electric Cable Jointers Assistant
Canada North West Teritory VIEW
TOWNSHEND, Mary G L Daughter Single F 9 1892
Liverpool
Lancashire VIEW
TOWNSHEND, Harold R Son Single M 8 1893
Liverpool
Lancashire VIEW
TOWNSHEND, Frederick G Son Single M 5 1896
Liverpool
Lancashire VIEW
TOWNSHEND, Martha E Daughter Single F 0 (6 MOS) 1901
Reading
Berkshire

this would match 1911 but no william

I can't see Martha or frederick 1911, what about anyone else?
jan

brother also james henry was born in canada
martha born berkshire
family travelled around a bit

1891 census - household transcription
Person: TOWNSHEAD, James H
Address: 12, Webster Street, Liverpool
TOWNSHEAD, James H Head Married M 28 1863 Coal Dealer Electrician
Liverpool
Lancashire VIEW
TOWNSHEAD, Martha E Wife Married F 28 1863
Liverpool
Lancashire VIEW
TOWNSHEAD, James H Son M 4 1887
Canada VIEW
COLLINS, John Lodger Married M 62 1829 Tailors Cutter
Ireland Galway VIEW
COLLINS, Catherine Wife Married F 46 1845 Book Folder And Sewer
Liverpool
Lancashire

Eureka!

SOWNSHEND, Martha Wife Married
27 years F 48 1863 Liverpool Lanc VIEW
SOWNSHEND, Gertrude Daughter Single F 19 1892 Liverpool Lanc VIEW
SOWNSHEND, Frederick Son Single M 15 1896 Grocers Liverpool Lanc VIEW
SOWNSHEND, Martha Daughter Single F 10 1901 Reading VIEW
SOWNSHEND, William Son Single M 9 1902 Croydon VIEW
SOWNSHEND, Annie Daughter Single F 8 1903 Croydon VIEW
SOWNSHEND, Ivy Daughter F 7 1904 Croydon VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
3434 Reference:
RG14PN3434 RG78PN129 RD39 SD6 ED14 SN233

Registration District:
Croydon Sub District:
Mitcham Enumeration District:
14 Parish:
Mitcham

Address:
19 Marian Road Streatham County:
Surrey

well done brummie jean

so he has left her with the children

either divorced her to remarry
bigamy or not actually married Mary Ellen

My money is on just moving out. This is his marriage to martha:

Marriages Dec 1884 (>99%)
Miller Emmeline Birkenhead 8a 729
Rothwell Martha Edith Birkenhead 8a 729
Stapledon William Clibbit Birkenhead 8a 729
Townshend James Henry Birkenhead 8a 729

Can't see another.

the marriage of sister mary

Marriages Jun 1911 (>99%)
Romain Louisa Croydon 2a 594
Stevens Thomas E Croydon 2a 594
Stiller Robert R Croydon 2a 594
Townshend Mary G L Croydon 2a 594

UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919
about Harold Rothwell Townshend Name: Harold Rothwell Townshend
Birth Place: Liverpool
Residence: Farnworth, Lancs
Death Date: 9 Jun 1917
Death Location: France & Flanders
Enlistment Location: Manchester
Rank: L/Corporal
Regiment: East Lancashire Regiment
Battalion: 7th Battalion
Number: 36482
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre
Comments: Formerly 17778, Manchester Regt.

from find my past
Soldiers Died in the Great War 1914-1919 - soldier details
Name: Harold Rothwell TOWNSHEND Memorial Scroll

Purchase scroll




Rank: L/CPL

Initials: H R

Birthplace: Liverpool

Residence: Farnworth, Lancs

Enlisted: Manchester

Regiment, Corps etc.: East Lancashire Regiment

Battalion etc.: 7th Battalion.

Formed at Preston Sept. 1914-K2-to 56th Bde. 19th Div. at Tidworth. Dec. 1914 to Andover in billets. Feb. 1915 Clevedon in billets. End Mar. 1915 Perham Down, Salisbury Plain. 18.7.15 landed at Boulogne. 22.2.18 disbanded in France.


Number: 36482

Date died: 9 June 1917

How died: Killed in action

Theatre of war: France & Flanders

Supplementary Notes: FORMERLY 17778, MANCHESTER REGT.

possible marriage for young martha

Marriages Dec 1921 (>99%)
Axten Albert E Cole Thanet 2a 2505
Cole Sarah Axten Thanet 2a 2505
Pantony Richard Townshend Thanet 2a 2505
Townshend Martha E Pantony Thanet 2a 2505

possible

1881 census - household transcription
Person: TOWNSEND, James Henry
Address: Moor Ditch, Orrell
, David Head Married M 44 1837 Joiner
Orrell
Lancashire
TOWNSEND, Martha Pierce Wife Married F 44 1837
Liverpool
Lancashire
TOWNSEND, Margaret Elizth Daughter Single F 21 1860 Assists At Home
Ormskirk
Lancashire
TOWNSEND, James Henry Son Single M 18 1863 Locomotive Engine Cleaner (Rly)
Liverpool
Lancashire
TOWNSEND, Ralph Son Single M 11 1870 Scholar
Orrell
Lancashire
TOWNSEND, Mary Alice Daughter Single F 13 1868 Dressmaker (Apprentice)
Orrell
Lancashire
TOWNSEND, David William Son Single M 6 1875 Scholar
Orrell
Lancashire
TOWNSEND, Richard George Son Single M 3 1878
Orrell
Lancashire

Thank you all so very much for your help. At last I can see that
my grandfather William Edward Townshend was born in Croydon and with your help I have traced one of my late father's cousins in one of his old address book. How did you ever know to substitute the T for an S? I thought I had tried all the variations of the Townshend misspelling but never thought it would be shown as Sownshend. I still cannot find any registration of his birth, nor Annie or Ivy. Is it possible that some children were never registered? Also I can't find any second marriage registered for his father James Henry (1863) to his second wife Mary Ellen in 1910/11. As I see it James Henry Townshend (1863) left his first wife Martha and children sometime after the 1901 census when they were all in Croydon. He returned to Liverpool to marry? Mary Ellen and only Harold returned with them to Liverpool. Is this how your read the situation or am I using too much imagination? The fact that I have now traced a definite link with William Edward Townshend's (1902) sister Martha (1901) who married a Pantony in 1921 - their son James Pantony is shown in my dad's old address book - I know I have got the right William Edward Townshend. I would appreciate your understanding of this one. With my thanks.

Just a tip - wasn't clever enough to think of an "S"! I did a search using first name only for Martha senior. I found it using the free 1911 search first. so much better than the subscription site. Then looking at results it just stood out. This is a trick which is very useful from time-to-time.
Jan

I very much doubt he married Mary Ellen as divorce was so difficult and expensive. Unlikely to have married bigamously as he has his son around who would know about it!
I agree, it is hard to find a birth record for William.
Jan