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I have a family mystery that I need some help with please! My great grandfather, Arthur had 4 children with Isabella Saunders (b 1888) between 1909 and 1922. Isabella already had a son illegimately. The 4 children by Arthur were named Norton. All the children were born in Pancras, London. The birth certificates suggest that he married Isabella as she uses his name, but I can find no record of a marriage. He and Isabella do not appear on 1911 census. In 1901 Isabella was living with her parents. Between 1909 and 1922 the family were living at 8 Exmouth St, St Pancras. Arthur and Isabella seperated sometime between 1922 and 1927 when she married Richard Mantell (Isabella is recorded as a spinster). The Norton sons stayed in touch with Arthur as they grew up but the last time he was seen was just before WW2 (live account from the last surviving son). I found a war death of an Arthur Edward Norton but he was too young. On the birth certificate of the 3rd child James Edward Norton in 1917, Arthur Edward is recorded as being in the 8th Kings Royal Rifles which may be the only place that there is a record of him!!....at the time of other births he was a window cleaner and carman. Would be grateful for any advice on what to do next!

Faith

Probably not a great deal of help but I believe that the Kings Royal Rifles were also known as the Rifle Brigade:

8th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Winchester on 21 August 1914 as part of K1 and attached to 41st Brigade in 14th (Light) Division. Moved to Aldershot, going on to Grayshott in November and in February 1915 went to Bordon. Returned to Aldershot in March 1915.
May 1915 : landed at Boulogne.
27 April 1918 : reduced to cadre strength.
16 June 1918 : transferred to 34th Division and on 27 June to 39th Division.
3 August 1918 : disbanded at Desvres.

There does not appear to be any surviving service records but this medal index card might be him and indicates a service number:

Name: Arthur E Norton
Regiment or Corps: Rifle Brigade
Regimental Number: 5729

Awarded the Victory and British medals.

In 1911 there were three families recorded as living at 8 Exmouth St, St Pancras. No Norton's amongst them I'm afraid.

369 HOOKER, Henry Head Married M 49 1862 Builders Labour Born in St Pancras Parish VIEW
369 HOOKER, Annie Wife Married
28 years F 49 1862 Born in St Pancras Parish VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
661 Reference:
RG14PN661 RG78PN23 RD9 SD1 ED10 SN369

Registration District:
St Pancras Sub District:
West St Pancras Enumeration District:
10 Parish:
St Pancras

Address:
8 Exmouth St London N W

367 EARL, Henry Joseph Head Married M 49 1862 Packer Crossex Blackwell London St Giles VIEW
367 EARL, Mary Ann Wife Married
9 years F 47 1864 London St Pancras VIEW
367 HEWLETT, Nellie Daisy Daughter Single F 20 1891 Patent Stopper Maker London St Pancras VIEW
367 HEWLETT, John Frederick Son M 13 1898 School Boy London St Pancras VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
661 Reference:
RG14PN661 RG78PN23 RD9 SD1 ED10 SN367

Registration District:
St Pancras Sub District:
West St Pancras Enumeration District:
10 Parish:
St Pancras

Address:
8 Exmouth St London N W

368 CULL, Richard Head Married M 43 1868 Market Porter London Middlesex St Pancras VIEW
368 CULL, Ellen Wife Married
10 years F 34 1877 London Middlesex St Pancras VIEW
368 CULL, Sidney George Son M 10 1901 London Middlesex St Pancras VIEW
368 CULL, Frank Son M 7 1904 London Middlesex St Pancras VIEW
368 CULL, Henry Richard Son M 4 1907 London Middlesex St Pancras VIEW
368 CULL, Albert Edward Son M 2 1909 London Middlesex St Pancras VIEW
368 CULL, Mary Ellen Daughter F 1 1910 London Middlesex St Pancras VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
661 Reference:
RG14PN661 RG78PN23 RD9 SD1 ED10 SN368

Registration District:
St Pancras Sub District:
West St Pancras Enumeration District:
10 Parish:
St Pancras

Address:
8 Exmouth St London N W

Thank you Jonesey! I am quite new to this, so sorry if this is a silly question...is the info you supplied able to be interrogated further and if so how would i do that?

If Isabella married as a spinster, it's unlikely she and Arthur were married. Bigamy happened, but not all that often. And if she had been widowed, it would have been a simple matter to say so when she remarried.

Can you give us the name of the child born before 1911?

Is the Norton-Saunders birth in Marylebone in Sep Q 1911 not to your couple?

Wow...I didnt know that you can look at census by address!! I clearly have a lot to learn! I need to check the address that was on birth certificate for child born in 1909 as I may have assumed at 8 Exmouth St as children born in 1917, 1920 and 1922 were. I didnt get the first birth certificate from GRO as I assumed I had all the details I needed ....never assume anything I an sure is the advice you will give me!!

Isabella's first child with Arthur Edward Norton was Arthur Edward Norton born 10 August 1909.

I am not aware of another birth in 1911 but only because I wasnt looking for one, having been given outline family history by one of Isabella's surviving sons (Albert Norton born 1920)

Perhaps another lead..thanks!

Faith,

Both the 1881 and 1911 census can quite easily be searched by address and other UK census records can I believe be searched by address at Find My Past but as I do not have a subscription to that site I am not 100% sure.

The 1911 census can be interrogated in many different ways such as single/married and occupation. I have already looked for an Arthur Norton who was a window cleaner but nothing showed up.

Can you also give us Isabella's details, per the 1901 census or otherwise -- place of birth, parents' names ...

It's just that when you say they aren't in the 1911 census -- they probably are, they just haven't been found yet. ;) And all available details could help do that.

JC, I think that this is Isabella in 1901:

Name: Isabella Saunders
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Edward Saunders
Mother's Name: Jessie Saunders
Gender: Female
Where born: Union St Oxford St, London, England
Civil parish: St Anne Soho
Ecclesiastical parish: St Anne Soho
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Westminster
Sub-registration district: St Anne Soho
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 565
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Saunders 37
Jessie Saunders 34
Isabella Saunders 12
Lily Saunders 11
James Saunders 9
Ada Saunders 6
Edith Saunders 4
Florence Saunders 2

Here she is in 1891:

Name: Bella Saunders
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Edward Saunders
Mother's Name: Jessie Saunders
Gender: Female
Where born: Marylebone, London, England

That's the one I suspected, was just hoping to have it from the horse's mouth. ;)

Seems to match with this one:

Births Jun 1888
SAUNDERS Isabella Emily Marylebone 1a 530


However, she married as plain Isabel:

Name: Isabel Saunders
Spouse Surname: Mandell Or Swain
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1927
Registration district: Pancras
Registration county (inferred): Middlesex
Volume Number: 1b
Page Number: 194a

Pretty sure that is indeed her birth as here is her death:

Name: Isabella Emily Mantell
Birth Date: 23 Apr 1888
Death Registration Month/Year: 1979
Registration district: Camden
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 14
Page: 2344

sorry was just ordering birth certificates from GRO!!

Yes you are both right! Born 1888 to Edward and Jessie. Married Mantell in 1927 (although the marriage cerrificate is interesting ...first he called himself Swain and later corrected it to Mantell...I know that Mantell was married to someone else and had a family who knew nothing about the marriage to Isabella until they started researching family history!)

Thanks so much for your interest and help!

Faith,

I will leave you in the capable hands of JC as I am now off up the wooden hill to Bedfordshire. I will look in again in the morning to see if anything has been found.

Good luck.

how on earth do you both do this so fast.?? I am in awe!

NORLAND, Arthur Head Married M 28 1883 Winders Cleaner London Essexham VIEW
NORLAND, Isabella Wife Married
3 years F 22 1889 London Marylebone VIEW
NORLAND, Arthur Son Single M 2 1909 London St Pancras VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
535 Reference:
RG14PN535 RG78PN18 RD7 SD1 ED20 SN92

Registration District:
St Marylebone Sub District:
All Souls Enumeration District:
20 Parish:
St Marylebone

Address:
2 Greese Street W

correction submitted image clearly Norton

I'm not having any luck finding a marriage between an Edward Saunders and a Jessie (which could always be a transcription problem), or finding them in 1911 either.

And Lyndsey has 'em! How did I ignore that when I searched for Arthur with parents but no surname??

" when you're cleaning winders !"
They say married 3 years hmmmmmmmmmmm

I think the age in 1911 is out:

Births Mar 1887
Norton Arthur Edward W. Ham 4a 126


Lindsey, I was just about to hum the same tune!