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Paul

If your comfortable that is Ratford's death, his brother John may have been the informant which could give some clues to determine if it's your John. Lots of if's and buts.

Yes, we all seem to have moved up a bit.

Vera

I am coming to the conclusion that my ggfather was John Darnell who was lodging with Elizabeth in 1881. They married in 1884 and in the 1891 Census my gmother changed from Sophia Seal to Darnell. I have just heard from a contact via Ancestry that on her marriage to my gfather William Docking she married as Sophia Darnell and listed her father as John Darnell. His first wife Susan Fordham died in 1871. They also had a daughter Sofia b.1850 d. 1863.

Vera
I do believe that is Ratford's death. Excuse ignorance but where does 'informant' reference come from?
Paul

I think the Yorkshire mines are a black hole. Thought it might be an idea to look at Joseph and Selma Seal, Ratford's landords. Can't find them! Probably me.

Paul

I'll deal with last query first. Have been having a look at Ratford on 1871 with Joseph and Selina. Joseph is supposed to be born in Durham. Cannot find any Joseph Seal born there. The two children said on census to be born in Cambs.

I have found a George Josiah married 1868 in Newmarket to a Selina Pollard.
On the 1861 census a George Josiah Seal lives with his parents in the same street/road as John Seal, Ratford and family. I wonder if that Joseph from Durham is mistranscribed for name.

There is also a child born 1869 Josiah in Newmarket. Selinba Pollard was also born in Soham.

More ifs and buts. We need someone else's input because this is all speculation.

Vera

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about George Josiah Seal Name: George Josiah Seal
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1868
Registration district: Newmarket
Inferred County: Cambridgeshire
Volume Number: 3b
Page Number: 865 (click to see others on page)


Harriett Cater
Henry Lambert
Selina Pollard
George Josiah Seal


Vera

1861 England Census
about George J Seal Name: George J Seal
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Seal
Mother's name: Martha Seal
Gender: Male
Where born: Soham, Cambridgeshire, England

Civil parish: Soham
Town: Soham
County/Island: Cambridgeshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Newmarket
Sub-registration district: Soham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 219
Piece: 1036
Folio: 48
Page Number: 35
Household Members: Name Age
John Seal 59
Martha Seal 60
George J Seal 14
James Seal 11


Vera

Just some thoughts Paul. If your descendent is Sophia. She was born in 1878 after our possible John and his brother Radford went off to Yorkshire.
However John could have returned - who knows. The lodger Mr Darnell does not appear on the census until 1881 but could also have been around at the time of Sophia's birth and she does give Mr Darnell as her father on marriage cert. Have you seen Sophia's birth cert.

Katford or Radford' death was registered. So someone would have had to give details to registrar. It could be a stranger of course but it also could be that John we identified as working also in Yorkshire.

Vera

Vera
You are good at this and I like speculation. Not sure how you can find things which turn up blank for me? Experience?
Paul

Parish Records Collection - burial
First name(s): John
Last name: SEAL
Date of burial: 1 Oct 1885
Age at death: 48
Calculated year of birth: 1837
Place of burial: Brotton
Dedication: St Margaret
County: Yorkshire (North Riding)


(this for the 1885 Death posted earlier)



Parish Records Collection - baptism
Day: 5
Month: Oct
Year: 1884
Forenames: Sophia
Surname: Seal
Relationship: of
Father forenames:
Fathers occupation:
Mother forenames: Elizabeth
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode: of Pratt St Soham
Place: Soham
County: Cambridgeshire
Data provider: Cambridgeshire Family History Society



Parish Records Collection - baptism
Day: 5
Month: Oct
Year: 1884
Forenames: Elizabeth
Surname: Seal
Relationship: of
Father forenames:
Fathers occupation:
Mother forenames: Elizabeth
Birth Day: 10
Birth Month: Jun
Birth Year: 1884
Abode: of Pratt St Soham
Place: Soham
County: Cambridgeshire
Record source: Cambridgeshire Baptisms

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Sophia Seal Name: Sophia Seal
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1878
Registration district: Newmarkt
Inferred County: Cambridgeshire, Suffolk
Volume: 3b

Of course it could still say John Seal.

Lots of things turn up blank for me too.

Vera

Vera
I have not seen any certificates relating to my gmother Sophia. I have received the information I do have from a contact I made on Ancestry. She is reaearching Darnell family and has promised to look a bit deeper into John.
I have followed John from 1841 through to 1901 census. In 1871 he was living with wife Susan and children in Soham. Susan then died in 1871 and the next time, as you know, he was lodging with Eliabeth in 1881.
Most of my tree is on Ancestry - 'Docking'.

Paul

You can obtain a birth cert from the General Register Office

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

They cost about £9.50 but that may not answer your ? John Seal or Mr Darnell as the biological father.

Sophie was born between the census of 1871/1881 so not able to pinpoint where John Seal or Mr Darnell were at that time.


Vera




Vera

Hi Vera

It is possible that George Josiah is John and Ratford Seal's brother. Reference 1851 census where parents John and Martha and George aged 4. Speculation again but very coincidental.

Paul

Hello Paul

I do think its very likely. I was not joining up the dots so to speak. Of course John and Ratford had married by then and were out of the home but living in Soham nearby.. So if that is the case then it is likely that it was Josiah (transcribed Joseph), and Ratford who were in Yorkshire with possibly John nearby. in 1871.

It still does not of course prove Mr Darnell to be Sophia's biological father but if John was in Yorkshire and Mr Darnell in Soham more likely Mr Darnell. I don't know how often people travelled to see their families in those days if they were working away from home. May be a question for you on Genealogy Chat but give details of this thread if you do that.

Just for info here is George Josiah's birth details

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about George Josiah Seale Name: George Josiah Seale
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1846
Registration district: Newmarkt
Inferred County: Cambridgeshire, Suffolk
Volume: 14
Page: 137

Vera

Parish Records Collection - baptism
Day: 12
Month: Jul
Year: 1846
Forenames: George Josiah
Surname: Seale
Relationship: son of
Father forenames: John
Fathers occupation: lab
Mother forenames: Martha
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode: otp
Place: Soham
County: Cambridgeshire


Parish Records Collection - baptism
Day: 7
Month: Jan
Year: 1849
Forenames: Selina
Surname: Pollard
Relationship: dau of
Father forenames: Robert
Fathers occupation: lab
Mother forenames: Mary
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode: otp
Place: Soham
County: Cambridgeshire

Chris :)

Vera/Chris

Just updating my main tree on Ancestry for Josiah and Selina when I received a hint. This other tree shows them having two children, Anna and Josiah, both born in 1869. Then Selina marries James William Seal in Guisborough, 1870??? She then emigrates to States in 1888 with 'children' aboard Scythia from Liverpool. Died in Michigan in 1915. She had Martha, William, Margaret and James with James William starting in 1871.

This leaves me confused because I thought she was with Josiah in 1871.

Paul

So did I. Always have to beware of the waving green leaves on Ancestry but I will take a look at that Immigration Record. However, the thing you are tryijng to find out Paul is about John and his whereabouts when Sophia was born and if he is likely to be your g/gfather or ? Mr Darnell.

Chris has given a lot of Parish records which appear to link this family and there is evidence of them all being away from Soham after 1871.

I think you need to get Sophia's birth cert to see if the father is named. If not, perhaps you could eliminate John by placing him in Yorkshire. Ratford's death cert may have John as the 'informant'

Vera

1) Do not believe it just because it is in ancestry.
2) Could you contact the tree owner to see what 'proof' they have?

??????? Joseph


England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about Joseph Seal Name: Joseph Seal
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1872
Age at Death: 25
Registration district: Guisborough
Inferred County: Yorkshire North Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 304 (click to see others on page)

Vera