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Lol Paul, hope you get your hands on that box of certs. very soon, and find all the answers!!, and a new baby due too, you'll be very busy soon methinks!. Hope all goes ok...

(and, just to add, that Margaret Seal (mother of James born 1850) is in Shadwell, Stepney on the 1851 census, a house servant. leaving James with John and Martha the Grandparents)

Chris :)

Paul

Licky you. What I would give for a box full of certs. Have an older brother but only the odd photograph. It's always worth checking out the Ancestry hints as a lot can be totally off.

That record of Chris' re James Seal is intriguing - mother probably one of the Seal sisters. It's easy to go off on a tangent dealing with other members of the family I do it all the time.

Good luck with the coming birth. See you back on the boards in 10 years time! You can throw me the odd query now and again.

Vera

Vera/Chris
Quick lunchtime dabble again. Thanks again for your help. I know I should be focussing on John Darnell who I still 'believe' is my ggfather but I find the Seal mysteries intriguing.
One source is my sister who is 20 years older than me and has just returned from holiday. She has a box of certificates that I looked at once. At the time the Seal/Darnell issue was not on my radar but I will ask her to look.
The hint on Ancestry was obviously valid but did not have any sources attached.
The possibility of James being a nephew is a distinct possibility. I spotted him listed as gson but could not fit him into the picture.
Imminent birth of daughter's third (complications) means that I have limited time at moment because we are looking after other two most evenings and weekends.
Anyway you are better at this than me and you obviously enjoy a challenge!!

Paul

1910 United States Federal Census ?...
about Salma Seal
Name: Salma Seal
[Salina Seal]
Age in 1910: 64
Estimated Birth Year: 1846
Birthplace: England
Relation to Head of House: Wife
Father's Birth Place: England
Mother's Birth Place: England
Spouse's Name: James Seal
Home in 1910: Iron Mountain Ward 5, Dickinson, Michigan
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Gender: Female
Year of immigration: 1889
[1887]
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
James Seal 66
Salma Seal 64
Dorice Trenberth 10 (2 Grandchildren)
Margaret R Trenberth 1

(image says married 44 years, 6 children born, 4 living, James arrived 1881)

Not found them 1900 as yet...

Chris :)


Baptism
Day: 3
Month: Feb
Year: 1850
Forenames: James William Robert
Surname: Seal
Relationship: son of
Father forenames:
Fathers occupation:
Mother forenames: Margt single woman
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode: otp
Place: Soham
County: Cambridgeshire

Are you ready for this. Do you think Selina (aka Ann) married Joseph's (George Josiah) nephew or have it completely lost the plot.

1861 England Census
about James Seal Name: James Seal
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Soham, Cambridgeshire, England

Civil parish: Soham
Town: Soham
County/Island: Cambridgeshire
Country: England


Registration district: Newmarket
Sub-registration district: Soham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 219
Piece: 1036
Folio: 48
Page Number: 35

John Seal 59
Martha Seal 60
George J Seal 14
James Seal 11

Vera

For info. Seems Ancestry got it right this time.


New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
about Selina Seal Name: Selina Seal
Arrival Date: 22 Apr 1888
Birth Year: abt 1850
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Ethnicity/Race­/Nationality: English
Place of Origin: England
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland
Destination: United States of America
Port of Arrival: New York
Port Arrival State: New York
Port Arrival Country: United States
Ship Name: Scythia

Travelling with Jonah (Josiah) 19, Martha 15, William 11, Margaret 6 and James, 4

Vera

Here is Josiah with maternal grandparents, the Pollards who Chris posted as Selina's parents in a Parish Record


1881 England Census
about Josiah Seal Name: Josiah Seal
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Soham, Cambridgeshire, England

Civil parish: Soham
County/Island: Cambridgeshire
Country: England

Street Address: Mere Side

Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Newmarket
Sub-registration district: Soham
ED, institution, or vessel: 5

Piece: 1680
Folio: 96
Page Number: 8
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Pollard 75
Mary Pollard 75
Josiah Seal 13


Vera

???? now she is changing her name. Ann E and Martha possibly Joseph (Josiah's children) Wonder where young Josiah went to.


1881 England Census
about James Seal Name: James Seal
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Seal Born Soham
Gender: Male
Where born: Soham, Cambridgeshire, England

Civil parish: Brotton
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address: 5 Day St
Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Iron Stone Miner

Registration district: Guisborough
Sub-registration district: Lofthouse
ED, institution, or vessel: 5

Piece: 4838
Folio: 113
Page Number: 9
Household Members: Name Age
James Seal 30
Ann Seal 32
Ann E. Seal 11 Born Soham
Martha A. Seal 10
William R. Seal 5
Margaret Seal 4
John H. Seal


Vera

If that's your Joseph (George Josiah)

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about Selina Seal Name: Selina Seal
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1875
Registration district: Guisborough
Inferred County: Yorkshire North Riding
Volume Number: 9d
Page Number: 759 (click to see others on page)


Thomas Hastings
Susanah Jane Kirk
James Seal
Selina Seal

now lets see if she emigrated.

Vera

??????? Joseph


England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
about Joseph Seal Name: Joseph Seal
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1872
Age at Death: 25
Registration district: Guisborough
Inferred County: Yorkshire North Riding
Volume: 9d
Page: 304 (click to see others on page)

Vera

1) Do not believe it just because it is in ancestry.
2) Could you contact the tree owner to see what 'proof' they have?

So did I. Always have to beware of the waving green leaves on Ancestry but I will take a look at that Immigration Record. However, the thing you are tryijng to find out Paul is about John and his whereabouts when Sophia was born and if he is likely to be your g/gfather or ? Mr Darnell.

Chris has given a lot of Parish records which appear to link this family and there is evidence of them all being away from Soham after 1871.

I think you need to get Sophia's birth cert to see if the father is named. If not, perhaps you could eliminate John by placing him in Yorkshire. Ratford's death cert may have John as the 'informant'

Vera

Vera/Chris

Just updating my main tree on Ancestry for Josiah and Selina when I received a hint. This other tree shows them having two children, Anna and Josiah, both born in 1869. Then Selina marries James William Seal in Guisborough, 1870??? She then emigrates to States in 1888 with 'children' aboard Scythia from Liverpool. Died in Michigan in 1915. She had Martha, William, Margaret and James with James William starting in 1871.

This leaves me confused because I thought she was with Josiah in 1871.

Paul

Parish Records Collection - baptism
Day: 12
Month: Jul
Year: 1846
Forenames: George Josiah
Surname: Seale
Relationship: son of
Father forenames: John
Fathers occupation: lab
Mother forenames: Martha
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode: otp
Place: Soham
County: Cambridgeshire


Parish Records Collection - baptism
Day: 7
Month: Jan
Year: 1849
Forenames: Selina
Surname: Pollard
Relationship: dau of
Father forenames: Robert
Fathers occupation: lab
Mother forenames: Mary
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode: otp
Place: Soham
County: Cambridgeshire

Chris :)

Hello Paul

I do think its very likely. I was not joining up the dots so to speak. Of course John and Ratford had married by then and were out of the home but living in Soham nearby.. So if that is the case then it is likely that it was Josiah (transcribed Joseph), and Ratford who were in Yorkshire with possibly John nearby. in 1871.

It still does not of course prove Mr Darnell to be Sophia's biological father but if John was in Yorkshire and Mr Darnell in Soham more likely Mr Darnell. I don't know how often people travelled to see their families in those days if they were working away from home. May be a question for you on Genealogy Chat but give details of this thread if you do that.

Just for info here is George Josiah's birth details

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about George Josiah Seale Name: George Josiah Seale
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1846
Registration district: Newmarkt
Inferred County: Cambridgeshire, Suffolk
Volume: 14
Page: 137

Vera

Hi Vera

It is possible that George Josiah is John and Ratford Seal's brother. Reference 1851 census where parents John and Martha and George aged 4. Speculation again but very coincidental.

Paul

Paul

You can obtain a birth cert from the General Register Office

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

They cost about £9.50 but that may not answer your ? John Seal or Mr Darnell as the biological father.

Sophie was born between the census of 1871/1881 so not able to pinpoint where John Seal or Mr Darnell were at that time.


Vera




Vera

Vera
I have not seen any certificates relating to my gmother Sophia. I have received the information I do have from a contact I made on Ancestry. She is reaearching Darnell family and has promised to look a bit deeper into John.
I have followed John from 1841 through to 1901 census. In 1871 he was living with wife Susan and children in Soham. Susan then died in 1871 and the next time, as you know, he was lodging with Eliabeth in 1881.
Most of my tree is on Ancestry - 'Docking'.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Sophia Seal Name: Sophia Seal
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1878
Registration district: Newmarkt
Inferred County: Cambridgeshire, Suffolk
Volume: 3b

Of course it could still say John Seal.

Lots of things turn up blank for me too.

Vera

Parish Records Collection - burial
First name(s): John
Last name: SEAL
Date of burial: 1 Oct 1885
Age at death: 48
Calculated year of birth: 1837
Place of burial: Brotton
Dedication: St Margaret
County: Yorkshire (North Riding)


(this for the 1885 Death posted earlier)



Parish Records Collection - baptism
Day: 5
Month: Oct
Year: 1884
Forenames: Sophia
Surname: Seal
Relationship: of
Father forenames:
Fathers occupation:
Mother forenames: Elizabeth
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode: of Pratt St Soham
Place: Soham
County: Cambridgeshire
Data provider: Cambridgeshire Family History Society



Parish Records Collection - baptism
Day: 5
Month: Oct
Year: 1884
Forenames: Elizabeth
Surname: Seal
Relationship: of
Father forenames:
Fathers occupation:
Mother forenames: Elizabeth
Birth Day: 10
Birth Month: Jun
Birth Year: 1884
Abode: of Pratt St Soham
Place: Soham
County: Cambridgeshire
Record source: Cambridgeshire Baptisms