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Vera
You are good at this and I like speculation. Not sure how you can find things which turn up blank for me? Experience?
Paul

Just some thoughts Paul. If your descendent is Sophia. She was born in 1878 after our possible John and his brother Radford went off to Yorkshire.
However John could have returned - who knows. The lodger Mr Darnell does not appear on the census until 1881 but could also have been around at the time of Sophia's birth and she does give Mr Darnell as her father on marriage cert. Have you seen Sophia's birth cert.

Katford or Radford' death was registered. So someone would have had to give details to registrar. It could be a stranger of course but it also could be that John we identified as working also in Yorkshire.

Vera

1861 England Census
about George J Seal Name: George J Seal
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Seal
Mother's name: Martha Seal
Gender: Male
Where born: Soham, Cambridgeshire, England

Civil parish: Soham
Town: Soham
County/Island: Cambridgeshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Newmarket
Sub-registration district: Soham
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 219
Piece: 1036
Folio: 48
Page Number: 35
Household Members: Name Age
John Seal 59
Martha Seal 60
George J Seal 14
James Seal 11


Vera

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about George Josiah Seal Name: George Josiah Seal
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1868
Registration district: Newmarket
Inferred County: Cambridgeshire
Volume Number: 3b
Page Number: 865 (click to see others on page)


Harriett Cater
Henry Lambert
Selina Pollard
George Josiah Seal


Vera

Paul

I'll deal with last query first. Have been having a look at Ratford on 1871 with Joseph and Selina. Joseph is supposed to be born in Durham. Cannot find any Joseph Seal born there. The two children said on census to be born in Cambs.

I have found a George Josiah married 1868 in Newmarket to a Selina Pollard.
On the 1861 census a George Josiah Seal lives with his parents in the same street/road as John Seal, Ratford and family. I wonder if that Joseph from Durham is mistranscribed for name.

There is also a child born 1869 Josiah in Newmarket. Selinba Pollard was also born in Soham.

More ifs and buts. We need someone else's input because this is all speculation.

Vera

I think the Yorkshire mines are a black hole. Thought it might be an idea to look at Joseph and Selma Seal, Ratford's landords. Can't find them! Probably me.

Vera
I do believe that is Ratford's death. Excuse ignorance but where does 'informant' reference come from?
Paul

I am coming to the conclusion that my ggfather was John Darnell who was lodging with Elizabeth in 1881. They married in 1884 and in the 1891 Census my gmother changed from Sophia Seal to Darnell. I have just heard from a contact via Ancestry that on her marriage to my gfather William Docking she married as Sophia Darnell and listed her father as John Darnell. His first wife Susan Fordham died in 1871. They also had a daughter Sofia b.1850 d. 1863.

Paul

If your comfortable that is Ratford's death, his brother John may have been the informant which could give some clues to determine if it's your John. Lots of if's and buts.

Yes, we all seem to have moved up a bit.

Vera

Seem to be repeating myself. Couldn't see post I did during lunch.

Vera/Chris - many thanks for your input.

Being brothers there is every chance Ratford and John went looking for work toget her. Willis P and Willis M were also from Soham.

Other coincidence is Ratford lodging with Joseph and Selma (reads Salina in Census) Seal. Joseph from Durham and Selma from Soham!

Puzzling?

Paul

Looks like a lot of Soham people headed North to the mines. Wonder if the pob's were muddled by enumerator or they were deliberately hiding them.
I think the following may be Ratford.


Name: Katford Seal
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1879
Age at Death: 38
Registration district: Guisborough
Inferred County: Yorkshire North Riding
Volume: 9d

Vera

Excellent spot Vera. I found Ratford previously working here but POB and age meant John stayed hidden. Being brothers they could well have gone to look for work.
Other coincidence is that Ratford was staying with Joseph and Selma Seal. Also two Willis's were from Soham. Joseph is shown as born in Durham (cf Soham) and Selma (think it reads Selina) as Soham.
Plot thickens.

Paul

1881

HASTINGS, John Head Married M 59 1822 Labourer
Frampton
Lincolnshire
HASTINGS, Sarah Wife Married F 50 1831
Marsdon
Lincolnshire
BROADBENT, Thomas Boarder Single M 56 1825 Gardner
Loham (Soham)
Cambridgeshire
SEAL, John Boarder Single M 42 1839 Ironstone Miner
Osgoby
Lincolnshire
BEAL, George Boarder Single M 28 1853 Ironstone Miner
Osgoby
Lincolnshire
RG number:
RG11 Piece:
4838 Folio:
111 Page:
6
Registration District:
Guisbrough Sub District:
Lofthouse Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish
Civil Parish:
Brotton Municipal Borough:
Address:
8, Day St, Brotton County:


Deaths Sep 1885 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------
SEAL John 48 Guisbro' 9d 287



Following Vera's find in 1871, is this the same John, still in Brotton 1881?...wonder if his birthplace was muddled with Thomas Broadbent.


(noticed the following small article in newspaper, nothing on John though)

Taken from, the Bury and Norwich Post, and Suffolk Herald, dated Tuesday November 22nd 1881...

Newmarket Petty Sessions.
Elementary Education.
Charles Jobson and Elizabeth Seal of Soham, were charged by Jonathan Leonard with neglecting their childrens education. Both pleaded guilty and were fined with costs 5s each, 14 days allowed for payment.

Chris :)


Forenames: Elizabeth
Surname: Darnell
Residence:
Day: 9
Month: Feb
Year: 1923
Age: 83
Notes:
Parish: Soham, Burial Book
County: Cambridgeshire
Grave details: K360/2522/
Record source: Cambridgeshire Burials

Paul Wild one A John and Radford, lodgers working as miners. Radford born Cambs, John born ? Whitley

1871 England Census
about John Seal Name: John Seal
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Whitley, Yorkshire, England
Civil parish: Brotton
Ecclesiastical parish: Brotton
Town: Brotton
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Guisborough
Sub-registration district: Marske
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Household schedule number: 83
Piece: 4853
Folio: 134
Page Number: 21
Household Members: Name Age
William James 34
Sarah James 29
Sarah Fletcher 11
Elem Ann Fletcher 5
John Seal 31
John Jobbin 57
Wiliam Lefferson 33
Mary J Lefferson 27
Eliza Lefferson 5 Months


1871 England Census
about Radford Seal Name: Radford Seal
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Cambridgeshire, England
Civil parish: Brotton
Ecclesiastical parish: Brotton
Town: Brotton
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Guisborough
Sub-registration district: Marske
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Household schedule number: 131
Piece: 4853
Folio: 140
Page Number: 33
Household Members: Name Age
Joseph Seal 25
Selma Seal 23
Joseph Seal 3
Ann Eliza Seal 2
Willis Peevey 25
Willis Murfot 22
Radford Seal 31

Vera

Flo

Thanks for your help. Nothing like a good mystery is there. I have been through so many permutations along the same lines as you. My grandmother married as Darnell which as always made me think that the 'lodger' has a lot to answer for. Not sure if I will find out - guess one possibility would be birth certificate or visit down to Soham area.

Other possibility regarding John was prison/deportation? Was it still valid in 1870's?

Paul

Sorry. Senior moments. 1861 census shows Liza is John's daughter. Last week I thought Ratford was my ggfather now I am sure Ratford's brother John is.
Confusion was that both wer married to an Elizabeth.

Still not got an answer to my original question about what happened to John.

There is this one in 1861. I think her name is Clark but she is unmarried.

KING, James Head Widower M 66 1795 Farmer Of 100 Acres Employing 29 Men And 6 Boys
Dullingham
Cambridgeshire VIEW
KING, Robert Son Unmarried M 26 1835
Newmarket All Saints VIEW
LEADER, Martha Servant Unmarried F 60 1801 House Keepr
Greenstead
Suffolk VIEW
>>COOK, Eliza Servant Unmarried F 21 1840 Cook
Godmanchester
Huntingdonshire VIEW
FORST, Samuel Servant F 15 1846 House Maid
Tostock
Suffolk VIEW
SHARP, James Servant M 15 1846 House Boy
Ousden
Suffolk VIEW
RG number:
RG09 Piece:
1031 Folio:
54 Page:
15

Registration District:
Newmarket Sub District:
1 Cheveley Enumeration District:
4 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Ely

Civil Parish:
Dullingham Municipal Borough:
Address:
Hill Farm, New Market Lane, Dullingham County:
Cambridgeshire


Edit Think found this one in 1851 with parents Elijah and Eliza so can be discounted.

Elizabeth Clarke in 1851.

CLARKE, Samuel Head Married M 35 1816 Brick Burner
Barkshall
Suffolk VIEW
CLARKE, Dianna Wife Married F 32 1819
Great Paxton
Huntingdonshire VIEW
CLARKE, Elizabeth Daughter F 10 1841
Godmanchester
Huntingdonshire VIEW
CLARKE, Emma Daughter F 1 1850
Soham
Cambridgeshire VIEW
CLARKE, Arlota Daughter F 0 (9 MOS) 1851
Soham
Cambridgeshire VIEW
SMITH, Maria Servant F 14 1837 House Servant
Soham
Cambridgeshire VIEW
HARD, Richard Visitor Married M 35 1816 Pipe Maker
St Ives
Huntingdonshire VIEW
FROST, George Visitor M 14 1837 Ag Lab
Dullingham
Suffolk VIEW
RG number:
HO107 Piece:
1763 Folio:
249 Page:
36

Registration District:
Newmarket Sub District:
Soham Enumeration District:
4D Ecclesiastical Parish:

Civil Parish:
Soham Municipal Borough:
Address:
Cooks Picer Brickilm, Soham County:
Cambridgeshire

This may be Eliza in 1861.

Parish Records Collection 1538-2005baptism
Day: 13
Month: Sep
Year: 1859
Forenames: Elizabeth Eliza
Surname: Seal
Relationship: dau of
Father forenames: John
Fathers occupation: lab
Mother forenames: Elizabeth
Birth Day:
Birth Month:
Birth Year:
Abode: otp
Place: Soham
County: Cambridgeshire


This now appears to be her birth.

Civil Registration event: Birth
Name: SEAL, Elizabeth Eliza
Registration District: Ely
County: Cambridgeshire
Year of Registration: 1859
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Mother's Maiden Name: Not available before 1911 Q3
Volume No: 3B
Page No: 573