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I would appreciate some more help this time regarding Grace Phillips birth.

Ellen Margaret Miller (born 1914 St Olave, Bermondsey London) my grandmother, had a half sister called GRACE PHILLIPS. Grace married Reginald Tapp in 1943. Her father name was given as Thomas Frank Phillips merchant seaman. Her birth age was given as 31 (1912). I know that Ellen Miller’s mother was Margaret Jane Phillips who married James Frederick Miller in 1914 in Bermondsey. Margaret’s father was George Phillips. I thought that as Grace was definitely a half sister to Ellen then Margaret must be her mother but they had different fathers or Grace was born out of wedlock. Margaret is a spinster on her marriage certificate of 1914. I am trying to find the birth record of Grace. I ordered the certificate:
Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
1912
Phillips Grace M Phillips St.Olave
1d 347

But when it came the birth mother was Maud Phillips (no fathers name).But Margaret couldn’t be Maud could she?

I then asked the record office to look for Grace Phillips in Islington in 1912 with Margaret as the mothers forename with the view that this would be the correct birth record:
Phillips Grace Phillips Islington
1b 303

They refunded me £9.25 saying that there was no Grace Phillips with mother Margaret from 1911 to 1913 in Islington.

Now I don’t know what to do. The only birth references that I can find are the ones below but the dates or places are out.

Births Jun 1908
________________________________________
Phillips Grace St Olave
1d 187


Births Mar 1910
PHILLIPS Grace Stone
6b 23


Births Mar 1911
________________________________________
Phillips Grace Merthyr T.
11a 877


Births Jun 1911
________________________________________
Phillips Grace H M Belford
10b 508


Phillips Grace M Ecclesall B.
9c 414


Should I now order the 1908 birth certificate, checking mothers name is Margaret Phillips or should I concentrate on Thomas Frank Phillips her father or both?

Thank you for looking at my request.
Helen

Was Margaret's maiden name Phillips

Dear Julie,
Yes Margaret Jane Phillips.
Helen

The to be honest i wouldn't go chasing after Thomas as it is probably a made up name

Before ordering that 1908 BC might be worth asking for someone to do a 1911 look up for Grace & or Margaret

Thank you Julie, I had wondered if Thomas Frank Phillips was really her father or not too! I will take your advice about the 1911 census.
Thank you.
Helen

Hello Helen - do you have 1911 access? If not, I'll have a look if you could give Margaret Jane's birth year.

Hi,

Do you know when Grace died? It could give her DOB on her death cert then this would help in finding her birth.

Dee x

????????

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Grace May Tapp Name: Grace May Tapp
Birth Date: 27 Dec 1911
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1983
Age at Death: 71
Registration district: Bexley
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 11
Page: 0351

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1912 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phillips Grace M Phillips St.Olave 1d 347



Looks like her birth??



Dee x

I would check the address on the birth certificate in 1911 and see who lived there.

Thank you everyone.
Margaret Jane Phillips was born in 1884. I have not looked up Grace May Phillips on the 1911 census or her mother Margaret Phillips, so i would appreciate any help with that. Thank you.

Batmans daughter / Dee - Is that Graces's actual birth date on her death index? How did you find that? I don't supose it says where she was born?

The birth reference that you have given to me above shows that her mothers name was Maud Phillips (as I have got that certificate) Do you think therefore that Maud is Margaret? I will run back home and see what the address is on the birth certificate.....

Thank you all for helping

Hi Helen,

if that is Grace's death then the birth certificate you have would tie in, sadly there is no more info available online about her death. Her death was available on Ancestry.

I'll have a look about and see what turns up.

When was James Frederick Miller born? I'm hoping that there maybe a WW1 service or pension record available and he names the children..... sometimes their DOB are included.


Dee x

Silly me, the DOB on the birth cert hopefully will tally with the death I found....

Ok after sprinting home so now i am puffing ..... birth certificate....27th December 1911 Grace May, girl mother MAUD Phillips living at 10 Cherry Garden Street Bermondsey.
Do think that Maud must be my Margaret? I know that her daughter Ellen was known in the family as Nell etc! Surely this has to be the correct certificate as how many Grace May Phillips marrying A Tap can there be?

Helen

Well if you know for definate that your Grace married Reginald Tapp I would say that Maud was Margaret............. OR did Margaret have a sister Maud and Margaret take Grace as her child???

Dee x

Yes I know that Grace married Reg Tap (photos to prove it and my mums and others recollections oh and a marriage certificate!) I believe that Margaret had a number of sisters Mary Ann, Elizabeth, Grace, Isabella, Florence and Dorothy, so she may well have taken on another child or she may have siad that she was maud not margaret for shame....she was already pregnant with Ellen Margaret when she married james Miller, so Grace May Phillips could well be hers as well.
You don't know how much I appreciate your help. Thank you very much indeed.
Helen

1911 census

Address: 10 Cherry Garden St Bermondsey S E

Name Relation Condition/ Yrs married Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born

STONE, Benjamin Head Married 13 years M 35 1876 Chimney Sweep Bermondsey London
STONE, Elizabeth Wife Married F 36 1875 Bermondsey London
STONE, Benjamin Son M 12 1899 School Bermondsey London
STONE, Elizabeth Daughter F 11 1900 School Bermondsey London
STONE, Jane Daughter F 9 1902 Bermondsey London
STONE, James Son M 7 1904 Bermondsey London
STONE, Ellen Daughter F 3 1908 Bermondsey London


and


1911 census address 10 Cherry Garden St Bermondsey S E

Name Relation Condition/ Yrs married Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born

CLARKE, Walter Alec Husband Married M 48 1863 Bucther General Hand London Bermondsey
CLARKE, Emma Jane Wife Married 22 years F 43 1868 London Bermondsey
CLARKE, Heneritta Alice Daughter Single F 19 1892 Machinist London Bermondsey
CLARKE, Laura Daughter Single F 16 1895 Messenger London Bermondsey
CLARKE, Mabel Daughter F 13 1898 School London Bermondsey
CLARKE, David Son M 11 1900 School London Bermondsey
CLARKE, Beatrice Daughter F 8 1903 London Bermondsey
CLARKE, Sarah Constance Daughter F 6 1905 London Bermondsey

Is this the Phillips family??

1891 England Census
about Mogie Phillips Name: Mogie Phillips
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: George Phillips
Mother's name: Jannie Phillips
Gender: Female
Where born: Shadwell, London, England

Civil parish: Ratcliff
Ecclesiastical parish: Stepney St Thomas
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Ratcliff
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 293
Folio: 39
Page Number: 2
Household Members: Name Age
George Phillips 38
Jannie Phillips 37
Elizabeth Phillips 15
George Phillips 13
Grace Phillips 12
Jessie Phillips 3
Mogie Phillips 7
Isabelle Phillips 4
Flora Phillips 1


1901 England Census
about Margaret Phillips Name: Margaret Phillips
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: George Phillips
Mother's name: Jessie Phillips
Gender: Female
Where born: Shadwell, London, England

Civil parish: St Andrew Holborn Above The Bars and St George The Martyr
Ecclesiastical parish: St George the Martyr
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Holborn
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 54
Piece: 245
Folio: 114
Page Number: 6
Household Members: Name Age
George Phillips 49 >>> Gun smith
Jessie Phillips 47
Grace Phillips 21
Jessie Phillips 19
Margaret Phillips 16
Florence Phillips 10
James Phillips 7
Dorothy Phillips 3
Mary A Wood 70 >>> Mother in law

1881 Scotland Census
about Grace Phillips Name: Grace Phillips
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relationship: Daughter
Father's name: George Phillips
Mother's name: Jessie Phillips
Gender: Female
Where born: Aberdeen, Abershire
Registration Number: 168/1
Registration district: St Nicholas
Civil parish: Aberdeen St Nicholas
County: Aberdeenshire
Address: 7 Hendersons Cot 46 Broad Street
ED: 33
Household schedule number: 35
Line: 2
Roll: cssct1881_50
Household Members: Name Age
George Phillips 28
Jessie Phillips 27
Mary Phillips 7
Elizabeth Phillips 5
George Phillips 3
Grace Phillips 1

Dear Dee,
I am amazed that you are still helping me as you have spent so much time already....thank you so much. You are so fast that I am having difficulty keeping up :-)
Ok ....the 1911 census is not any help is it, which is a shame. I think that the other censuses look like my margaret Jane Phillips though.

I am so sorry I have got to go as my internet time is up. I am soooooo frustrated as it has been a brilliant few hours. Thank you Dee very much for solving the puzzle for me about Grace as I would have ordered more and more certificates!!!! I greatly appreciate everyones help and am aware that it all takes a huge amount of time and effort to do so.....thank you :-)
Hopefully I will be able to pick it up again on Wednesday at the library!
With sincere thanks Helen